Casters, are the fort saves on most monsters too high?

[Stalker0]

I think the problem is that the general way to improve monsters as levels increase is to make em BIG!!

Big means a much bigger con...combined that with the increase in HD most high level monsters get and the saves start picking up.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I think a lot of the fort negates spells should do a small amount of nonlethal damage when a save is made.

Actually, I'd like to see 4E use a mechanic where nonlethal damage stacks up and PCs are more likely to be knocked unconscious, than flat out killed, in many combats. But that's a tangent.

Ken

 

[Valesin]

I strongly disagree with most of the opinions offered in this thread.

First of all, many of the threads on this board are about (or at least mention) the fact that spellcasters greatly outstrip other classes, especially the fighter, at higher levels. I hardly think that the solution is to make them even MORE powerful. Nerfing everyone's Fort save so that save-or-die spells become the norm rather than the occasional party-saving tactic? Boring. Making the wizard far superior to the fighter even in situations where the fighter should have center stage (slugfests with big strong monsters)? Unfair...and boring. Every spell being effective despite successful saves against them? Why not nerf every moster's AC so that the fighter never misses? Or let the fighter do half damage on attacks that miss? How about house-ruling that no creature is immune to sneak attacks so that the rogue always does ludicrous damage?

Every class should have situations where they excel and others where they are at a disadvantage. You are looking to take the already most powerful PCs in the game and remove any situations where they might not be able to shine, slaying everything that challenges them with but a word.

I hope you have fun running parties with nothing but clerics and wizards.

(ps: almost every monster with an uber fort saves has a pathetic will save. And spells with reflex saves, also often poor in big strong monsters, already do half damage on a success. Do your wizards only know save-or-die fort-save spells? Then they deserve to be ineffective).

 

[Barak]

When I build a spellcaster, I alwasy make sure he has a nice spread of spells that cover all 3 saving throws. In a way, it's the equivalent of the fighter carrying a blunt weapon in case he meets skeletons. And fortitude spells are a must, if only to use against other spellcasters.

 

[Thanee]

I'd almost say a negative level or 2 points con damage would be fair.

That's a good thought (if I understand you right).

In general, it would be pretty cool, if spells would slowly weaken the resistance with every one cast on the same target. For example, every spell targeted at Fort, which gets resisted, lowers the Fort save by one for the remaining encounter.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Valesin]

I'd almost say a negative level or 2 points con damage would be fair.

Con damage and/or negative levels on a successful save? No offense, but are you high? You are talking about D&D, right? The game where things that bestow negative levels or do con drain are among the most deadly and feared encounters ever?

In the D&D I play, spellcasters already have a million things they can do in and out of combat other than cast spells with fort saves, spellcasters are the most powerful PCs hands down, and Con damage and neg levels are extremely deadly and not to be used lightly.

I can't believe I am even playing the same game as some of you people.

Con/neg levels on a successful save. That has got to be the single worst idea I have ever heard.

 

[erc1971]

In our group, casters usually concentrate on 2 things: buffing the party, and/or damage spells.

Save or Die spells almost never work. It is just too dang easy to make saves. When things start getting dangerous, our casters throw out damage, because even a save results in half damage, or it is an orb spell and a roll of 2 hits the touch AC of most big, slow, powerful monsters. (Dragons are a real sucker for Orb of Force). A rod of substitution is great, you can turn all your spells into cold for example, making that Fireball useful against the Red Dragon. Got a save or die spell vs. the BBEG - pray the DM rolls a 1, otherwise you are not doing much.

In addition, damage spells are assisted by the melee guys in the group, as everyone is working towards the same goal, to kill the monster through sheer damage - meaning even a made REF save does something to the thing.

 

[Victim]

The power of high level casters has more to do with their vastly increasing strategic prowess through rapid movement, divinations, etc rather than their ability to kill things quickly inside combat outside of controled conditions. I haven't seen very high level casters dominate combat as many seem to expect.

But Fort saves probably are too high, since it seems that more monsters have good Fort saves than anything else. Because of the importance of Con in giving creatures respectable amounts of HP without bloating their HD (which has its own problems), Fort saves generally end up higher than other saves.

 

[Barak]

For my money, the right way to handle "insta-kill" spells is the Power Word: Kill model. There are no saves, but it won't work as the very first action of an encounter.

 

[lukelightning]

Instead of targetting the BBEG directly, I like to go for the "second in command" in a battle with my SoD spells, or the mooks with my area spells (if I can't get them all). I'll let the fighter and cleric pound on the BBEG the old-fashioned way.

For my money, the right way to handle "insta-kill" spells is the Power Word: Kill model. There are no saves, but it won't work as the very first action of an encounter.

Unless, of course, the encounter is a rich merchant or a peasant who gets in your way.