Casters, are the fort saves on most monsters too high?

[Barak]

Unless, of course, the encounter is a rich merchant or a peasant who gets in your way.

Well.. Yeah. But then again, those guys have a good chance of failing a fort save too, anyway.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I actually agree with all three options on this poll. I don't think any of them is mutually exclusive with the others, really. I am quite happy that save-or-die spells don't have an appreciable chance to auto-kill monsters and PCs because they make for battles that are less interesting if the chance is too high.

 

[lukelightning]

Well.. Yeah. But then again, those guys have a good chance of failing a fort save too, anyway.

Yeah, hooray for phantasmal killer.

"I swear he was dead on the ground with a twisted exprression of sublime horror that can't be comprehended by mortal minds frozen on his face when I got here!"

 

[genshou]

The problem is that in order for Colossal monsters to be represented by the current ruleset, they have to have scores of hit dice. If some of the mechanics related to size and HD were retooled, the saves and attack bonuses would no longer be ridiculous.

 

[genshou]

On another note, I should point out that Elements of Magic - Revised Edition does not have save-or-die spells. If you want to kill things with a wave of your hand, deal a lot of damage. I'm finding reducing monster hit dice and giving them natural Damage Reduction instead of natural armour to AC, ala Grim-n-Gritty, is a better way to go for this style.

Edit: Furthermore, it makes spells actually useful against a dragon beyond counterspelling and dispel magic.

 

[Drowbane]

I think a lot of the fort negates spells should do a small amount of nonlethal damage when a save is made.

Actually, I'd like to see 4E use a mechanic where nonlethal damage stacks up and PCs are more likely to be knocked unconscious, than flat out killed, in many combats. But that's a tangent.

Ken

Hey Ken. Ya moved?

 

[bowbe]

What about player characters with insane will saves and equally gross fortitude and or will saves?

I think monsters need a break! Heck I'd give them even better saves, not to make the wizards and clerics completely useless but to give the poor monsters a fighting chance! The PCs did invade their friendly domicile with murderous intent and greed in their hearts. They wouldn't be carrying those shiny keen weapons, portable holes and bags of holding if this were not the case! What ever happend to good old "Home field advantage?"

Take for example a 16th level fully loaded dwarven barbarian.

+2 saves vs. Magic

Greater Rage (Ex)
At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at -2

Indomitable Will (Ex)
While in a rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.

Soo if said dwarf has a respectable wisdom (say 12) for +1 to will saves, and is attacked with an magical enchantment spell He gets +9. for a full tally of +14. Add Iron Will Feat and that makes it a +16. By now he probably has a wisdom boosting item (say +4 wisdom) if he is smart and/or the DM is kind... bringing his total to +18. Don't roll a 1 on anything below DC 19 and he's absolutely fine. Besides rolling a 2 beats or meets a DC 20 enchantment spell.

If facing the greater host of other CR 16-18 hosts with an equally obscene intelligence/wisdom/charisma intelligence (20+ with boosts, or in the case of monsters "Supernatural Intellect, Wisdom/Charisma") a caster would have to resort to spells of 6th level and higher, spells from a school where spell focus and greater spell focus in enchantment are in effect.

But this is about sick fortitude saves right?

Same dwarf. You can rest assured that CON is definitely not his "dump stat" probably right up there with strength as tied for highest, highest, or 2nd highest stat. 16th level gets +16 on fort saves. With the average DC for level draining effects being around 16, he pretty much gains auto success on that dreaded "roll to see if you permanently lose levels" roll. Course by now if he isn't a total tool to the party cleric, he has insurance against that effect ever being "permanent". With racial +2 to con, figure he started with a 16 or better so if he has a constitution enhancing item (and what 16th level dwarven barbarian wouldn't) That fort save goes up to what? +19 to +21. Raging? Add another +4 to that fort save baby!

Definitely not going to be bothered by any puny wizard or cleric with an modified intelligence or wisdom score of 24 with any save or die spells unless he rolls that dreaded natural 1. Their best DC with a 9th level spell with the feats to buff their DC is about 27. His worst roll by getting a 2 is 27! A @#$@ 27!!

Woah Ho! Hold on now, what if the Wizard is specialized in that school of magic? Don't forget that mr. smarty pants! Ok Given. Woo he needs a 3 or 4. It can happen but it isn't likely. Ok I may be being a "little" bit sarcastic! It's all good trust me.

Hey now... don't they have a feat that you can take in PHB2 where even a natural 1 isn't an automatic failure? Cool. Make sure to get that too! Hahahah!Can't monsters get a feat to insure that a natural 20 isn't actually a hit? I should write one of those up for TOH4 if we ever do it!

And I didn't even mention a good quality cloak of resistance now did I? Those are fairly easy to get "common" magic items! Haruumph. Monsters only have increasing size categories and constitution (or lack thereof) to get them through!

All in good fun! In fairness I would like to say that I play a lot of 3.5, dm mostly and run into this sorta stuff a lot... just like most of the people who hang here. Common gaming concern, these saving throws and things that rapidly explode. Even so I recently started playing and writing a lot of Castles & Crusades.

Here is their novel approach which I believe suits this discourse admirably.

Wait for it... (before the moaning starts in as it always does! Hahahah!) All done?
Good let me continue for a moment more...


In Castles & Crusades the challenge of the spell increases based on the level of the caster! Saves get more challenging when cast by a higher level spell caster! Let me repeat that again. Saves get more challenging when cast by a higher level caster! ( I love copy paste).

That means your spells get better as you go up in levels. Your puny spells like web are tougher to avoid when you are higher level vs. weak foes, and equally challenging to foes of your own calibur. Making people all sleepy and snoozy is just as effective when your a higher level wizzie as it was when you were a 1st-2nd level twerp. Yes. That means you can still cast your 1st level spells with some decent result even when your 10th+ level, rather than your character just filling space in his brain with them every day like candy in a pinata.

Pretty cool.

Case

 

[Fishbone]

The example is suspect and consists of situational stacked modifiers while raging with a racial save bonus and a feat. Lets say you are a Human Fighter 16 and somebody goes after your Will save.
You're no dummy and you know that your Will save sucks. So you get a Robe of Resistance +5, a Periapat of Wisdom +4, and Iron Will. Thats a +14 will save. By 16th level that is 9th level spells or will targetting abilities from monsters of at least 18 HD. Lets say they've got a 22 in the save modifying stat. You're less than 50/50 to save. The casting stat could be another 6 higher or the monster could have 24+ HD. Look out, because you are in it deep.
You could certainly get it higher but at the expense of losing GP to maximize your offense and AC and the Reflex save will be open. So hitting a PC with something that they will have a hard time saving against is pretty easy.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It does not bother me in the least that particular monsters, such as Giants, have very very high Fort Saves. In most specific cases the design of these creatures is fine when viewed individually.

But I do not it should be a mechanical necessity that every dumb monster with a lot of HPs have sky high Fort Saves (or be outright immune to the more powerful Fort attacking spells), as is the case within the standard rules.

There is room for more variety and texture here.

I agree with Mouseferatu that playwise removing Negates and rebalancing these spells appropriately makes good sense.

 

[bowbe]

The casting stat could be another 6 higher or the monster could have 24+ HD. Look out, because you are in it deep.
You could certainly get it higher but at the expense of losing GP to maximize your offense and AC and the Reflex save will be open. So hitting a PC with something that they will have a hard time saving against is pretty easy.

Good thing friendly sarcasm and humor don't translate over message boards huh? Hahaha
BTW fish, im not picking on you at all! I very much hope you get that. You are totally 100% right. It isn't that hard to go after the weaknesses of any critter or PC if a GM wants to.

I wouldn't say that saving is that hard even for a stacked and beefcaked fighter. Reflex saves yeah, (Due to armor check penalties which nobody seems to bother with) but they have the hit points to choke down a lot o' damage. Characters spending their GP on resources! I am AGHAST at the thought!

What the heck else are is their treasure for if not to beef themselves with crazy items guaranteed to help them out of a jam? Forgive me here, because this is not the first time I have seen this whole thing about "wasting GP treasure". What exactly are characters doing with all the wealth they accumulate? Hoarding it like Smaugh and not letting anyone see your shinies? Unless you become a lich or vampire you really can't take it with you you know! LoL

How about investing in some diamonds in the event you do actually die in an encounter? How about investing some of it into the party cleric, wizard or druid to hit you up with things that grant magical resistance like imbue with spell like ability? Or paying them more than minimum for their XP cost to craft you some items? What about a ring of mind shielding or something of it's ilk? Man am I glad that monsters and nemisis aren't supposed to be dangerous or threatening to PCs anymore! Lol. If something lasts longer than this recent push we've been seeing for a maximum 6 round combat, it must be broken or poorly designed or something!

Good thing D&D is a group game where players have weaknesses that are supported by the strengths of other members of the party! Isn't it? Hmm maybe I need to re-examine the last 25 years. I've probably been totally wrong all these years! Very good thing that everyone understands that team aspect of the game and focuses on improving the group and uses a team mentality instead of selfishly min-maxing themselves with disreguard to that feature and an eye solely to themselves!

The inverse is true as well. A PC wizard or cleric with decent knowledge Arcana ranks should be able to pull a DC ( X) knowledge arcana out of their butt at any level appropriate to the encounter at hand and get a good idea of the various weaknesses of the foes that the party faces. Hopefully when they do they share that info with the group!

You know... use the old "free action" and hollar "Hey this thing is immune to piercing weapons and is very strong willed!" I'm actually pretty surprised that the vote in this poll has slanted the direction it has. Again, considering that Knowledge Arcana skill, wouldn't the caster have a pretty easy time of picking targets that WOULD be susceptible to said spells? Thus to me arguing that the spells just dont work is lame (unless im missing something that is occuring in a wide variety of games... see below).

I posted the dwarf as an extreme example and yes a situational one of sick and wrong PC fort and will saves. Monks, Paladins and the like have equally sick saves vs. all manner of things. Thats all part of their special perk and challenge. Monsters should be no different. If the complaint in this thread speaks to new monsters... say ones found in MM 2-4 then of course this complaint bears great merit to folk who use those books! That indeed would be a design aspect to be addressed with developers and R&D at WOTC! Get the pitch forks and torches, tar and feathers! Who's with me? (I suddenly feel like Will Farrell streaking the quad..I should just give up, a sense of humor doesn't translate worth a darn on message boards!)

I also freely admit that due to SRD restrictions in development of product for 3rd party publishers (i.e. D20) I am not allowed the fair use of said creatures. Thus I don't own those books as they serve no actual use to me and I am forced to create my own challenging and hopefully unique critters to fill the bill. Not complaining on that fact, because I find the restrictions a basis for much creativity!

With monsters from the core rulebooks (AKA the MM) I don't see a lot of these obscene fort saves, except for maybe giants, demons/devils, dragons and powerful elementals. In other words critters that SHOULD in my mind be highly resistant to the "save or die" spells in the first place. They are supposed to be a challenge equal to their CR aren't they?

So is this complaint about high fort save baddies being impossible to take out with save or die spells actually focused on those other critters from MM II-IV? If so I can verily take my dice and hypothesis about tough saves for all characters (based on varied situational modifiers) and go home! Hahaha.

Rather than seeing some of these issues as a problem I see them as a part and parcel of the FUN of gaming. Having to use other resources and rely on your party to overcome challenges. In my 25+ years of gaming and GMing it always seems to be the spellcaster's wheels that squeek the loudest when their pet spell doesn't work the way it is described in the book against the BBG despite the wide array of magical destructive tools at their disposal. I mean they can turn a guy or his pet weapon to ashes with a disintegrate spell at a pretty low comparable level. "I.E. target the feat friendly +3 bastard sword of wounding and smiting X with disintegrate". Heck, now that disintegrate does damage instead of just disintegrating, likewise it makes an awesome offensive spell EVEN if the critter makes the save. Plus knowing its going to make that save, you just reduced its HP significantly. I first noticed that little number with a Psion who used psionic desintegrate. Only power he actually NEEDED. We referred to him as the psion cannon! Lol.

Typically, even going back to ol' 1ed would you hear such complaints that "Well if they make the save they should still take some kind of damage. I mean I am Oompa Doo the Archmage afterall! I rule!" And sure, they have every right. They only get to dump that spell a couple times a day, if they memorized the wrong thing, stuff starts going bad for the whole party in a hurry so I get where they are coming from!

Also, forgive me if it sounds like bagging on players spellcasters in this post. I am not. As I pointed out I think that some of the issues with the Fort save may possibly be things like "new monsters" that I am not as familiar with, monsters or NPCs with class levels and magic items that give them fat boosts to their saves, or forgetting to use those knowledge skills to their best advantage in team situations. How's that for a summary?

Anyhow thanks for listening and letting me eat up all this page space!

Case