Casters' knowledge of a spell's success/failure

[Creat]

Hey

How do you handle what information a caster has about a spell effect after/while casting? Does he - for example - know if a spell failed when the target succeeds at his save?
Right now I let casters know if a spell was successful (same with their enemies of course), but there are many levels to it and I would just like to hear how you think about it, how you handle it or just if all this is clearly stated in the rules somewhere (we use the 3.0 rules). I only recall a really vague description I think in the DMG somewhere, which doesn't actually help that much. I did look for an answer to this but couldn't come up with anything helpful (or even find that entry I think I recall), I just hope you guys either just know (since it's really an everyday issue) or can point me to where I need to look...

Now - after thats all cleared up - lets phrase it a little more concrete:
Does a caster generally know if a spell succeeds independant from spell, only with spells where he gets some direct form of feedback (Dominate person/monster, link is established) or visual feedback (fireball goes boom, intended target(s) is/are in flames)?
Does he know if a spell succeeds against a given target if the spell specifies creature (or some subform like humanoid) as for example with charm person or mass charm (same, just multiple targets)?
If he has to beat a spell resistance, does he notice that and if yes does he know if he succeeded? If he notices the SR does he know if his spell failed because of the SR or because of a successful save?
If a spell fails does he know the reason? Examples would be target is immune to magic in general/this spell (afaik this is equivalent to having unbeateable SR) or taget is standing in an anti magic field (many more examples are possible of course)

Right know I give them the visual feedback only on area spells, but they know when a spell targeting creature(s) was successful or not (and against whom it was successful if more than 1 target).

thanx alot for your time!
Creat

 

[Sithobi1]

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

The caster only knows if it is a targeted spell.
I would allow the caster to know that the creature has SR, because he has to roll against it anyway, similar to the save, but I cannot find any backing for this in the rules.

 

[kjenks]

Even if you can't "just know" you might be able to detect an ongoing spell effect with a skill check:

SENSE MOTIVE (WIS)
Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.
[...]
Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (by definition, a mind-affecting effect), even if that person isn’t aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target’s activities.

SPELLCRAFT (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place.

Spellcraft DC Task
[...]
20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

 

[Creat]

SPELLCRAFT (INT; TRAINED ONLY)
Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place.

Spellcraft DC Task
[...]
20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

Yes, but that's not what I'm looking for (or not how I understand this application of Spellcraft). To me this application of spellcraft allows someone to identify a spell that causes a certain effect. For example if someone walked into a room where a glitterdust spell is in effect (cast by someone before the newly entering spellcaster could see or hear him) he could make that check to identify the spell from its visible effects.
I would not allow this check to find out if someone is charmed for example (without interaction I mean, of course). It would also not be possible to find out that someone has shield cast on him just by looking at him, because it has no visible effect (maybe after a few rounds when the character with the shield spell was the target of a few attacks).
This only allows you to idetify the spell that belongs to an effect that you whitnessed, not lets you idetify (and detect) spells that you have either no knowledge of or that don't have obvious effects (you know your fireball worked when the creature caught in its blast radius starts burning, esp. if you have just cast the fireball)

thank you anyway
Creat

 

[Creat]

kjenks: I hope I didn't over-interpret your post, but I think I might have

Creat

 

[azmodean]

What I think kjenks means is that you cast a spell (zone of truth for instance, it's an area effect, so by RAW you don't get feedback) and then make a spellcraft check to try to determine if the creatures in the area were affected. It's certainly resonable to give a visual description of saving throws as you mentioned for most attack spells.

Oh, with any compulsion effect I would allow the target to make a bluff check to pretend to be effected, with a penalty unless they can make a spellcraft check and determine what the spell was.

This doesn't work for charm person of course, since it is targeted.

More succintly, the caster knows about the save if the spell was targeted, even if it has multiple targets. They do not get any feedback if it is an area effect. I'm not sure about SR, IMC I consider SR to be really special so I have all kinds of fireworks for it.

 

[Creat]

That actually sounds like a solid thing, except for the SR thing, since he has to roll against it anyway as Sithobi1 already pointed out (I try to roll almost no rolls for my players at all, just doesn't feel right) so he KNOWS that that creature has SR when I ask him to do a caster level check every time he casts something...

bye
Creat