Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Tom Cashel:

1. Attenuation of magic's superiority (and hopefully a return to 'magic as mysterious force' rather than 3E's 'magic as science').

Here! Here! I'd love to see a downplaying of magic's universal applicability (and requisteness) introduced in 3E. Magic in 3E seems like another kind of tech, taken for granted and almost impossible to live without.

Something else to consider: what makes caster types so useful is not their combat or buffing abilities (which aren't necessarily needed) but their non-combat abilities, such as divination, levitation, scrying, etc.

 

[MojoGM]

I'm willing to wait for 3.5 to come out to make a judgement on the changes.

It's hard to establish an accurate picure in little bits and pieces.

And after all, you can always ignore the changes and keep it the way you like it. It's your game, not WOC's.

 

[Belen]

Actually, I started with 2e. You hardly ever saw wizards in 2e do to the fact that leveling took forever and most people did not want to sit on the back burner for the year it took to gain mid-level.

In my experiences, 2e fighters rules the roost. Very rarely did I ever play a 2e game that went past 10th. Usually the melee types would whine about how boring the game got because their abilities were so nasty. Anyone playing a mage constantly got gipped. No high level play meant that they could never shine.

3e was great for allowing casters the ability to do a lot more at low level. I saw a lot more people try casters that would never play them before.

I do not see why the melee lovers think magic too overpowered. If the GM is doing the job right, then things are balanced. In my game, which is high magic, the 12th level wizard is usually no where near as effective as the melee types, even with haste!

And for those of you who mentioned Quicken, then please think again. The highest spell that can be quickened is 5th. Why would anyone lose a Wail of the Banshee, or Meteor Swarm for a quickened 5th level! That is insane.

That's like taking the fighters magic sword, giving him a masterwork one that he has no specialty in and then throwing him against a dragon. It's work, but why bother.

Dave

 

[hong]

If the GM is doing the job right, then things are balanced.

If you have to add the precondition "if the DM is doing it right", then things usually aren't.

 

[S'mon]

IMO the fighter-type classes ought to be the dominant classes _in combat_, 3e's big problem was that clerics (and wizards at higher levels) were better in combat than the fighter types, and the fighters needed vast amounts of magic items & a friendly buffing caster to compete. 3.5e seems to be rectifying this, for which I'm very glad.

Jonathan Tweet did a good job on the 3e PHB, but perhaps his background in Ars Magica showed through a little too much with the dominance of spellcasters over grogs...

 

[The_Gneech]

Meeee-lee!
Meeee-lee!
Meeee-lee!
Whoofwhoofwhoofwhoof!

Nerf those casters; nerf 'em good! And toss out most magic items!

-The Gneech, iconic 1e barbarian

 

[Valiantheart]

Why can't fighters place a higher stat in Wis, Int, or Cha? They could certainly have more roleplaying reward by doing so. In my experience however, people who play fighters always place the highest stats in the combat stats, then whine because they can do nothing outside of combat. That is a matter of CHOICE! A fighter can have a 12 str, and a 16 cha and still be a very viable combat character with all their feats. Instead, we get a lot of people moaning about the casters doing everything while a fighter sits back behind the scenes.

I love this line of reasoning.
[SARCASM]
Well why dont you play a wizard with a 12 intelligence and 16 strength. All I hear about is wizards whining about only being able to cast spells. We get so many people moaning about the fighter doing the hand to hand combat.
[/SARCASM]

 

[Umbran]

[...snip...[
I see a lot of people argue that fighters can do nothing except fight. This is blantantly untrue.
[...snip...]
Spells are a casters entire existence.

There's a problem with your position, and it is typified with these two quotes. If a fighter can be more than just a fighter, then a spellcaster can be more than just their spells.

Why can't a wizard have a high Charisma, and have beter role-playing rewards and thus not need his spells to be so strong? By your own logic, a loss of power in the spells should not be an issue.

 

[Gez]

"Always the first to die, always the first to die..."

Sure, with his d4 HD and his d4 dagger, and his d4 magic missile, the wizard totally owns the barbarian with his d12 HD and his d12 greataxe.

The only part of comba in which the wizard is really efficient is artillery -- long range blasting of hordes of meek opponents through fireballs and other area-of-effect spells. And even then, great cleave + whirlwind attack (or great cleave + reach weapon + combat reflex) has proved more efficient.


They did have some insta-kill spells, but those are no more insta-kill. Now they are "roll lots of dice, so much dice you'll take two or three minutes rolling them and computing the total, and the other players will be angry at you and give you the order to never cast this spell again" spells.

 

[buzzard]

Honestly thinking that the changes we have seen (which really aren't that many) will nerf casters is jumping to conclusions.

Four spells are cited. One of which is generally used to buff the melee types(stat boosts). Thus they will be the ones suffering due to the change. As for the others, well I don't see it as that big a deal. Firing off two spells a round was too much. I'm neither here not there on Polymorph.

The truth is that the power of a caster is very setting dependent. I play a fair amount of Living Greyhawk, and in there casters rule the roost right now. It is a low magic campaign because of the rules of magic acquisition, which favors casters.

In my home game the archer actually rules the roost, but melee types outpace the casters usually. Not always mind you. The enchanter has saved the bacon several times. In 3ed you generally have to stay away from direct damage spells and use a bit more finesse. Though the utility spells of casters can often be crucial.

I'll wait to see the new books before I make any real judgements, but all I've seen looks merely like sanding off some rough edges. No changes are really that drastic.

buzzard