D&D 5E Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be.

[Micah Sweet]

FWIW, I think a proposed change to casters should come along with some additional redesigns to other systems. Sticky front lines should be one of them.

Low-level play in TSR era was built with certain assumptions. In particular dungeons with lots of 10' corridors (you could stick a row or two of 3-abreast front-liners between the enemies and the squishies). There also were (depending on specific game) rules about once you hit melee, you could either stay and fight, flee, or retreat, but not work your way around your opponent and rush their rear line. If you could somehow situate yourself to 'flee' from melee into an enemy rear-line (fleeing so you would get in an attack), IIRC each front liner would get their full attack iteration on you. Obviously everyone didn't play like that, but I also remember that as party sizes shrank (from scads of hirelings) and as we left the narrow corridors, we all did institute some kinds of house rules to address this because otherwise outdoor encounters were murder on the magic users and thieves that enemies could just run up to.

Regardless, my point is of course you can still use those tactics now (minus worse sticky front-line rules), but then you are choosing to stick more to the dungeon structure of old. My impression is that that is a non-starter for a lot of play groups.

The reaction roll and the prevalence of henchmen made a huge difference in these issues, I agree. That's why I prefer games that keep them in, and feel losing them hurt the game. You can get around a lot of the "not a dungeon" issues if you have those things and good tactics.

 

[nevin]

FWIW, I think a proposed change to casters should come along with some additional redesigns to other systems. Sticky front lines should be one of them.

Low-level play in TSR era was built with certain assumptions. In particular dungeons with lots of 10' corridors (you could stick a row or two of 3-abreast front-liners between the enemies and the squishies). There also were (depending on specific game) rules about once you hit melee, you could either stay and fight, flee, or retreat, but not work your way around your opponent and rush their rear line. If you could somehow situate yourself to 'flee' from melee into an enemy rear-line (fleeing so you would get in an attack), IIRC each front liner would get their full attack iteration on you. Obviously everyone didn't play like that, but I also remember that as party sizes shrank (from scads of hirelings) and as we left the narrow corridors, we all did institute some kinds of house rules to address this because otherwise outdoor encounters were murder on the magic users and thieves that enemies could just run up to.

Regardless, my point is of course you can still use those tactics now (minus worse sticky front-line rules), but then you are choosing to stick more to the dungeon structure of old. My impression is that that is a non-starter for a lot of play groups.

point is fix it one way, one group screams the rules are broke. fix it the other way the other side screams it's broke. And the YoYo goes back and forth.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Are we saying that Misty Step is uninterruptible? I thought the idea was to give martials the ability to counter spells without needing access to Counterspell.

there has also been the consistent caveat given that certain spells should be able to be cast in melee without triggering opportunity attacks. even if it's not misty step specifically or misty step will trigger the OA damage but will cast regardless of if they get hit having a designated 'melee escape panic button' spell would be something a caster would reasonably consider putting on their list and be worth having with magic interruption being a thing.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm just saying, when you nerf the casters you need to rebalanced everything. Because suddenly a hard encounter would become double deadly.

Also it would be no fun if my Wizard was interrupted every turn and couldn't do any magic except cantrips.

Denying players their turns is the worst thing you can do.

Disagree.

Losing a turn - or sometimes a whole bunch of turns if your character is knocked out, paralyzed, captured, dead, or whatever - is a known fact of D&D play; and that there will be times when your character is ineffective and-or out of action needs to be much more clearly stated in the PH as both a heads-up to players and as a complaints-denier when these times inevitably arise.

And that is essentially denying casters their turn in Combat.

Yep - it's a hazard of being a caster.

 

[Lanefan]

Because enemies like to run up to murder casters. Martials have limited ways to stop this (even if they want to) and what are you going to do? Disengage and Dodge means you're not casting spells. Spells spent for defense are spells that aren't actually helping the party win an encounter.

Spells spent for defense are helping you survive, and survival is job one.

If I'm a Wizard who gets stuck in melee my goal changes from "help to win the combat" to "survive long enough (and by so doing, keep my attackers focused on me) that someone can come and bail me out".

 

[nevin]

I'm just saying, when you nerf the casters you need to rebalanced everything. Because suddenly a hard encounter would become double deadly.

Also it would be no fun if my Wizard was interrupted every turn and couldn't do any magic except cantrips.

Denying players their turns is the worst thing you can do.
And that is essentially denying casters their turn in Combat.

Depends. If the players can deny enemy turns then fine. But usually DM's that hate magic want to throw baddies that are higher level have spell resistance, more magic than the party etc and at that point it does become unfun to play a wizard. when your Dm is doing all the things they tell you are bad and overpowered and shutting you down it begins to feel a bit like a russian propaganda movie.

Too often that's where the conversation ends up for people that want low magic games. They want the bad guys to have all the stuff they don't want the players to have. To that I say Pffft go into politics you'll fit right in.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In the older days of dnd, casters were kinda artillery units, they were powerful but slow, vulnerable, and cumbersome, how they enforced this was with the rules for a spellcaster, making it so you had to declare spellcasting at the beginning of the round and it was cast when your turn would come up(it was side based and initative would change every round.), and if you were hit, you lost the spell.

This kept casting a bit more in check during these days, and is the actual reason for the whole "frontline martial, backline caster" thing, the original intent was casters were artillery and martials were the soldiers. But come 3e Wizards kinda removed all of this for the most part due to streamlining and ended up buffing these classes far, while also putting all of the fighters features into feats, and the game has simply never quite recovered from this. It turned casters from Artillery to just heavy hitting as long as they had ammo, and kinda invalidated the other classes right then and there without that limit, with the only downside is ammo, they are just heavy soldiers now, just better but...limited..sometimes...if you play that way.

I feel this should return, casting being interruptable in some form, but i feel there is a better and more modern way to do this.

And if you wanna bring back the old rules of getting hit in the round before your turn loses you your spell cast, but in a modern way, you can just do this.

This is a simple way, and it isn't even new design, this is a sacred cow, this is how they used to work, but modernized a bit.

Im not saying this 100% solves the martial caster gap, but it gives martials at least a gives martial classes a raison d'etre, in a traditional way, plus i think it fits the fantasy of these classes and idea of them way more, and while it isnt for everyone, i feel you can at least make this a variant rule, or something, or make it a core rule and make the old way a variant for those who dont care for it.

I feel this is a better starting point a limit that brings back the original intent of these classes in a way that makes a lot of the design make more sense, like for example, mage slayer becomes better, it makes the defensive abilities make sense more(because they were based on spell where that was the intent and why they had them), and even frontline casters like bladelock and bladesinger still work well since that's why they use cantrips and weapon attacks, with higher defenses, it makes the design kinda come to life more.

Its not perfect but i feel it is a better starting point, and its not uncommon in a lot of dnd-like design(i got this from Worlds without Number lol)

What do you think?

TLDR: Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be, it was the thing that made them unique and limited, and made them the artillery units compared to the "soldier" units that were the martials, and i feel it enforces the modern fantasy of the classes better then what we have now, where they are kinda just super soldiers, with only some resource limitations holding them back.

I think you’re on the right track, but quite there (for my taste at least). I think there should be an OA if you cast in melee, and it has a chance to stop the spell via concentration mechanics.

Then, a feat that lets you interrupt a spell with a range attack as a reaction, and increases the damage you deal when interrupting a spell.

 

[M_Natas]

Isn't stun-locking a boss denying the DM their turn? Why isn't that the worst thing you can do?

Because the DM usually has more than one monster he controlls so he has still stuff to do, while a player usually has his one turn.
Also a DM can create stun immune monsters from scratch if it bothers him. Something players can't really do.

 

[M_Natas]

Good opportunity to invest in hirelings.

Oh, my character is trying to train Orphans to ride and fight on Kaktuul (medium to large Velociraptors) to gain a fast cavalry in the upcoming civil war and build up a militia from the poorer districts.
The other characters are a little worried that the Orphans may be eaten ...

 

[M_Natas]

Ag, so the boring part. The martials get the boring part.

Ey, if you wanna give fighters more stuff than just hit stuff, I'm for it. Battlemaster maneuvers for all martials!