D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

oh okay... well the DM can point to the random tables and say "Sorry your sword and board fighter ONLY got a +1 great axe and +2 leather armor, and 16 scrolls/potions"
You've successfully noted one of the many glaring & immediately obvious problems with wotc's attempt to bolt the non-fungible magic items awarded by tier on with xge rather than fixing any of the underlying structural problems like the omission of a thought out magic item pricing & wealth/treasure by level. Unfortunately at the time (and still) 5e also lacked the sort of guidance that was present in past editions for choosing crafting & designing them. Adding those sorts of guidance in meaningful form would be difficult without first correcting some of the underlying issues already noted but it would not be so difficult as to make such guidance impossible or justify the sor of game-breaking changes being advocated for in this thread.
 

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You've successfully noted one of the many glaring & immediately obvious problems with wotc's attempt to bolt the non-fungible magic items awarded by tier on with xge rather than fixing any of the underlying structural problems like the omission of a thought out magic item pricing & wealth/treasure by level. Unfortunately at the time (and still) 5e also lacked the sort of guidance that was present in past editions for choosing crafting & designing them. Adding those sorts of guidance in meaningful form would be difficult without first correcting some of the underlying issues already noted but it would not be so difficult as to make such guidance impossible or justify the sor of game-breaking changes being advocated for in this thread.
yup... and super bonus points for using Non-Fungible... but yeah, this is why I loved Residuum and the ritual to break magic items down in 4e.
 

yup... and super bonus points for using Non-Fungible... but yeah, this is why I loved Residuum and the ritual to break magic items down in 4e.
Yea even before 4e there was guidance on that sort of thing. the 3.5 dmg has a line that says something along the lines of "rewards only work if your players perceive them as having value" & there are quite a few pages devoted to various aspects of ensuring that the value bar is met with different methods/rewards. Even if nobody in the group thought those " +1 great axe and +2 leather armor, and 16 scrolls/potions" had any value it could still all get sold for gold to buy something they do perceive as valuable.
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One thing I wondered if it would work was for characters to get guaranteed scaling magic items, titles, or followers as replacement of Ability Score Improvements.

Like a fighter at level 12 could choose to destined to find a very rare sword and said sword doesn't count to attunement.

I once had an idea for a setting where all the magic items were "destined" weapons of long dead heroes and villains. Heroes's equipment would turn magically as they leveled and when they died, their items remained to aid others. Warrior tem's would have the most items available as they both tended to live longer and their items were least likely to run out of charges.
 

Yea even before 4e there was guidance on that sort of thing.
guidance and suggestion yes, but 4e put it in the players hands. it took all DM fiat away and let the game flow.
Even if nobody in the group thought those " +1 great axe and +2 leather armor, and 16 scrolls/potions" had any value it could still all get sold for gold to buy something they do perceive as valuable.
yes and no. I have seen MANY DMs say no magic item shops in 5e. You can with a quick search find many threads here about it. Now my group just house ruled a bunch of stuff, so we don't have the issue, but WoTC can fix it for everyone else...

(Funny related tangent: We ha a 3.5 game where the DM spent like a dozen games telling us we could not buy magic items, that nobody sold them... then a player tried to sell a +1 short sword and the NPC said "Sure, 1,000 gp" and the player was taken back and said "Try again you can't buy one for 30,000gp why would I take 1,000?" and the DM forgeting his own world said "yeah its worth 2,000gp and i still have to sell it for a profit" so the player came back with "If you can take me to this fantastical market where such wares are sold for only 2,000gp I will gift you this blade" that got us all to burst out laughing and the DM going red faced...)
 

But Out-of-Combat abilities don't actually matter, do they?

Like, actually matter? Unless your understanding of fun is to do something unexpected to the DM and possibly surprising them, what do Out-of-combat abilities really do?

So I don't see explicit abilities that more important. Anything in the game can be vetoed, RAW. So the sense of empowerment spells bring is an illusion, and so is any "disparity" between casters and martials.

I don't agree at all but I've never heard this argument before so there's that.

It's sort of the opposite of the "doesn't matter that the Fighter doesn't have simliar class abilities the DM can just alter the story to make the Fighter cool".

This is sort of "doesn't matter that the Wizard has agency empowering non-combat class abilities, the DM can just block them by altering the story to make them not matter whenever they want to, so these abilities aren't really worth much."

Under this appproach to the game, how does anything matter?
 

I don't agree at all but I've never heard this argument before so there's that.

It's sort of the opposite of the "doesn't matter that the Fighter doesn't have simliar class abilities the DM can just alter the story to make the Fighter cool".

This is sort of "doesn't matter that the Wizard has agency empowering non-combat class abilities, the DM can just block them by altering the story to make them not matter whenever they want to, so these abilities aren't really worth much."

Under this appproach to the game, how does anything matter?
I am now left to wonder if people regularly play or see play where spells are massively nerfed and martial classes RP huge game changing things... and if so I wonder what stops the casters from role-playing as well as those super great RPers that play martial classes?
 

Under this appproach to the game, how does anything matter?
It doesn't, really. It's a game, after all.

While it's true one character can go invisible and another cannot, the implications of that entirely depend on the DM, even with the full list of what the condition means.
I am now left to wonder if people regularly play or see play where spells are massively nerfed and martial classes RP huge game changing things... and if so I wonder what stops the casters from role-playing as well as those super great RPers that play martial classes?
There's no nerfing required. Spells only do what they say they do, but I haven't seen any spell that compels the DM to allow the consequences beyond that to matter.

For example, let's say you have invisibility. There's a list of things this implies under it's conditions but the DM has all rights to cancel every single one of them. And they can do it sensibly too, without really even considering it.

You turn invisible: You can hide anywhere...but actually these guards have dogs and the DM considers dogs to rely on their nose, so they'll immediately notice your presence anyways within nose-shot. You have advantage on attacks and others have disadvantage on attacks...but this enemy has cleverly kicked dust up and can see you and partially obscure them, granting advantage on their attacks and disadvantage on their own, effectively negating that.

It really would be unfair if the DM does this very often...but it's within their discretion. The only thing the wizard could cast is "get up and leave the table" spell, but it's essentially a suicide spell.

So the perception that a martial cannot, say, jump 120ft off of an ability check without the DM is true, but the same can be said for the wizard that cannot fly to the other side of a chasm because a massive wind gust appeared.



My conclusion is that DM's are just too impermissive for characters not using spellcasting in general. And yes, a somehow equally strengthened wizard might be able to do the same thing as a martial, tied to the ability system, but it doesn't matter because the core question is less "can I do this over other players" and more "Will the DM even allow this?"

Both statements "I jump over the pit" and "I cast fly and fly over the pit" is the same question: "DM, can I use my abilities to bypass this obstacle?" Which the DM can respond with "Yes" or "No." And if the DM replies to the Martial "No." More than the casters specifically because he doesn't like the idea of a martial jumping a fantastical distance, the DM should realize that a magic caster is just as fantastical and the idea of magic being able to do impossible tasks like flying and teleporting is only reasonable because fantasy says that it is. But it's the same fantasy as the martial jumping impossible distances, within the genre.
 

Both statements "I jump over the pit" and "I cast fly and fly over the pit" is the same question: "DM, can I use my abilities to bypass this obstacle?" Which the DM can respond with "Yes" or "No." And if the DM replies to the Martial "No." More than the casters specifically because he doesn't like the idea of a martial jumping a fantastical distance, the DM should realize that a magic caster is just as fantastical and the idea of magic being able to do impossible tasks like flying and teleporting is only reasonable because fantasy says that it is. But it's the same fantasy as the martial jumping impossible distances, within the genre.
Where I like wear your heart is, the rules go out of it's way to say "You can jump X far" (and even str 20 can't break the long jump record) and that fly lets you fly at speed 30. those two HAVE rules for a reason, yeah a DM can change either (I let PCs make athletics checks to jump beyond because I HATE the rule that basically says the 20th level fighter can't win the modern olympics) but that isn't a reason to not change the RAW...
 

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