D&D 3E/3.5 Casting Defensivly - 3.5 rules

[Count Arioch the 28t]

To Mike: I'm not so sure.

Besides, how often are you going to be buffed to the max? Not often, most fights, I have found, only allow one or maybe two buff spells being cast before the combat is over.

Sure, if the players have plenty warning, they damn well better buff up. (I've done that a few times. One time, it was a blackguard, who had a strong honorable streak, and allowed the players to prepare before fighting. the other was a dragon encounter that they had plenty of warning beforehand.)

Either way, it is a generalization, and a reasonable one, since I have found that most fights don't allow that sort of prep time.

There is nothing wrong with generalizations when they are correct.

 

[billd91]

I believe this all orginates from when the Reactive Counterspell Feat came out... which allowed Spellcasters to counterspell without first readying, at the expense of a later reduced action... And the fact that fighter types have no way of matching this kind of reaction speed... there has never been a Reactive Spellcaster Whacking feat.

On the other hand, without a reactive counterspell feat, counterspelling kind of sucks. Having to hold an action to try a counterspell is a weak strategy when you don't know what the opponent will cast, probably don't have the auto-countering spell, and have limited amounts of dispel magic. In many cases, you're better off maneuvering to get an AoO to disrupt the spell, holding an attack to do so, or casting at your earlier initiative in the hope of taking him out.
By contrast, AoO was already a frequently used strategy with no downside. No further benefits necessary.

 

[Scion]

On the other hand, without a reactive counterspell feat, counterspelling kind of sucks.

That is what silence is for right? it 'counters' 99% of the spells out there..lol.. well, until I changed it in my campaign

 

[sithramir]

I'd just like to point out that in my games I use Concentration DC = 15 +2*spell level

This has worked well in my games as its a bit harder to cast defensively but, in general, you can cast your lower levels spells no problem but perhaps your highest level spell you might fail (since its still new to you it makes sense).

This also makes the Combat Casting feat more worth it.

I've noticed that most people max out concentration who are mages and i've never heard of someone not having decent ranks until recently.

What I found was that because of the current rules, you could put 4 ranks at first level and have a +3 con and never put ranks in it again and still be able to do pretty well with a d20 roll if it came to it. Putting maybe 10 ranks total at 7th level and never more again mean you pretty much cast most of your spell levels guaranteed without any roll chance. Perhaps I see it from playing higher level games that its too weak, but any mage under 7th level who ends up in melee is almost guaranteed dead or the guy he was in melee with wasn't worth putting against the party. d4 hps and a few points of con bonus and he still has a nice critical (or high str double weapon) hit that will kill him anyways.

 

[mikebr99]

To Mike: I'm not so sure.

Besides, how often are you going to be buffed to the max? Not often, most fights, I have found, only allow one or maybe two buff spells being cast before the combat is over.

Sure, if the players have plenty warning, they damn well better buff up. (I've done that a few times. One time, it was a blackguard, who had a strong honorable streak, and allowed the players to prepare before fighting. the other was a dragon encounter that they had plenty of warning beforehand.)

Either way, it is a generalization, and a reasonable one, since I have found that most fights don't allow that sort of prep time.

There is nothing wrong with generalizations when they are correct.

We're still talking about 9th+ casters right? At that stage, Mage armor is 9+ hrs... hopefully you have +4 gloves of DEX (at least)... persistant Shield isn't out of the question... Stoneskin... polymorph... magic cricles... amulet of natural armor... etc. the list goes on...


I'd stay in melee range if I had to, to get the job done.


Mike

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

Well, those bracers of dex, amulets of natural armor, rigns of protection, will be had by your foes as well.

If you could show me the defenses that would nullify something with +45 to hit on their best attack, then I will bow to you. otherwise, I'm not sure that would mean anything at all that high.

All the cool toys your wizards would have, the bad guys would most likely have too.

 

[mikebr99]

Well, those bracers of dex, amulets of natural armor, rigns of protection, will be had by your foes as well.

If you could show me the defenses that would nullify something with +45 to hit on their best attack, then I will bow to you. otherwise, I'm not sure that would mean anything at all that high.

All the cool toys your wizards would have, the bad guys would most likely have too.

What CR9 creature has +45 to hit?

just curious...

Mike

 

[Planesdragon]

What CR9 creature has +45 to hit?

just curious...

Mike

9th level NPC barbarian 8 / sorceror 1 (+8 base)
with Weapon Focus (+1), 20 strength (+5), a +3 weapon (+3), a belt of giant strength +4 (+2), charging (+2) after casting True Strike (+20) while under the effect of Bless (+1) and Recitation (+2) and having higher ground (+1).

That's +45 right there. An Ogre Mage with some levels of sorceror and warrior could be even better.

 

[billd91]

9th level NPC barbarian 8 / sorceror 1 (+8 base)
with Weapon Focus (+1), 20 strength (+5), a +3 weapon (+3), a belt of giant strength +4 (+2), charging (+2) after casting True Strike (+20) while under the effect of Bless (+1) and Recitation (+2) and having higher ground (+1).

That's +45 right there. An Ogre Mage with some levels of sorceror and warrior could be even better.

I don't think I would consider the True Strike as anything typical that you can really count as a routine addition to someone's attack. It's not always going to be available. That barbarian runs out of attempts to cast it (each one triggering and AoO if he's within reach) after 3 or 4 tries depending on his charisma.
I don't know what Recitation is. From one of the splat books I presume?
And with that stoked out barbarian charging in anyway, casting on the defensive is a moot point. If he's charging you, he pretty much couldn't have been threatening you in the first place, alleviating the need to cast defensively in the first place.
Sure, this example shows how a +45 to hit can come about. But it's a fairly flukey confluence of conditions compared to what a wizard will normally deal with.

 

[mikebr99]

9th level NPC barbarian 8 / sorceror 1 (+8 base)
with Weapon Focus (+1), 20 strength (+5), a +3 weapon (+3), a belt of giant strength +4 (+2), charging (+2) after casting True Strike (+20) while under the effect of Bless (+1) and Recitation (+2) and having higher ground (+1).

That's +45 right there. An Ogre Mage with some levels of sorceror and warrior could be even better.

And my 9th level Wizard may get 2 rounds of stuff (assuming I win Init) before the true strike attack takes place. I should be able to survive one attack for sure, and then get - maybe - my 3rd round of actions.

This creature seems to be +25 to attack... not +45.