Castles and Crusades (NDA is lifted - ask questions, get answers)

[Jackal42]

C&C kind of goes its own way regarding round time. It's more like 2e in that the time isn't actually fixed (in 2e the one minute round wasn't really fixed, it was just an average to give the DM an idea of time) but it does give you an idea of what an "average" round time is. And, more like 3e, that is set at 10 seconds. The action per round system has been streamlined like the rest of C&C however so you've got one action per round no matter what you're doing or what class you are. That action can consist of several smaller steps but what you can and can't do in one round is pretty clear while leaving enough room for the CK to set a few limits (or grant a few freedoms) of his own.

And I'm not sure if I can put the attribute check idea into half-orc friendly terms (my intelligence isn't high enough to speak that many languages...lol) but I'll give it a go at least.

The idea behind the C&C attribute check differs from the 12/18 mechanic in that your prime makes no difference at all. The base mechanic here is 1d20 + attribute modifier + level. So your ability to make a strength check or intelligence check actually increases as you level. Meaning that a 1st level fighter might find it difficult to push a wagon down the street but the same 20th level fighter has no problem with it (even though his strength has never changed).

This is what I was getting at with the 1st and 20th level fighter example. If the CK looks at two characters of very different levels but with the same strength and decides that they should have the same chance to pass an attribute check then he'll need to give them both different target numbers (to account for the different bonus granted by level).

The nice thing is that you can remove the level bonus if you don't like it and the system still works fine. If you'd rather, for example, use 1d20 + attribute modifier only, then you don't have to set different target numbers based on level. So you can do it however you want depending on how you view things like attributes, level, and primes. And either way works just fine within the C&C system.

Ah, and Aztecman, I'm not sure you were really doing anything "wrong" in your playsession (unless you mean not using attribute checks "by the book") but I hope I've answered a few questions for your players and their next session.

 

[nicodaudel]

One possibility for keeping things untangled is to use the level modifier *only* when an Attribute Check relates to a character's class or expertise. In those few cases, it seems reasonable that increased experience, as reflected by levels, would matter. YMMV, but the options are many; any changes you make will leave the rest of the system unharmed.

-Dion

*SNIP*

The nice thing is that you can remove the level bonus if you don't like it and the system still works fine. If you'd rather, for example, use 1d20 + attribute modifier only, then you don't have to set different target numbers based on level. So you can do it however you want depending on how you view things like attributes, level, and primes. And either way works just fine within the C&C system.

*SNIP*

 

[Turanil]

The more I read, the more I am in a hurry to get my boxed set! Aaargh!!!

And now, I know how I could (possibly) use this game. Some months ago I did buy the Dragonlance ampaign setting purely out of nostalgia (and because it was at 16$ only) without any intent of running it. C&C nostalgia + DL-CS nostalgia would probably go fairly well together!

 

[Akrasia]

One possibility for keeping things untangled is to use the level modifier *only* when an Attribute Check relates to a character's class or expertise. In those few cases, it seems reasonable that increased experience, as reflected by levels, would matter. YMMV, but the options are many; any changes you make will leave the rest of the system unharmed.

-Dion

I agree. Jackal's example unnecessarily complicates things IMO. If a 1st level fighter and 20th level fighter with the same strength should have the same chance of performing some strength-related maneuver, just use the same target number and NOT add the character's level.

C&C is supposed to be rules-lite!

Also, after Jackal's post, it is unclear to me what the 12/18 mechanic DOES apply to. That is, what kinds of rolls involve the Primes/non-Primes distinction (12/18 mechanic), and what kinds of rolls do not (involve straight stats)?

My impression is that if you make a roll for a Prime ability, you have what amounts to a +6 bonus. That simple. (Whether this is because of additional skill or ability, the CK and her players can determine.) No I am not so certain...

Please keep it simple!

 

[Jackal42]

Some people feel that it will complicate things and others think it only makes sense. I'm on the fence myself...but the nice thing is that you can easily do it either way. Or a hybrid of the two, without causing any problems.

And as far as I know the only roll that defaults to the 12/18 mechanic for sure (this may change of course) is a saving throw. The rest is pretty much left up to the CK.

 

[Akrasia]

.... And as far as I know the only roll that defaults to the 12/18 mechanic for sure (this may change of course) is a saving throw. The rest is pretty much left up to the CK.

Only saving throws? Man, I thought for sure that the whole Prime thing was meant to act as a "rules lite" proxy for the skills and feats of 3.x! Otherwise, they seem pretty minor IMO.

Sure the CK can interpret them however she wants, but I hope SOME guidance/indication is given in the rules!

Still, I am more excited about this game than I have been about anything in the RPG industry for years.

I want my boxed set ... NOW.

 

[Turanil]

I want my boxed set ... NOW.

Me too!

Anyone knows when the two books (PHB and M&T) are planned to be released?

 

[mhensley]

Hopefully, someone who got their box set at Gencon will give us a review.

 

[Jackal42]

So far only saves are 12/18 by default but a lot of us playtesters used 12/18 for just about every non-combat roll we have and it worked out fine. For more specific guidelines; well, we'll all have to wait I guess.

And no one is going to be able to give a release or shipping date for anything unless we can get one of the Trolls to drop by (I imagine they are recovering from GenCon right now...lol). So we'll have to wait and see on that one as well.

 

[nicodaudel]

Here's the official word from Mac Golden, co-creator of C&C, re: 12/18 . . . Dion

Resolving Conflicts and Tasks
These rules assume a standardized mechanic for determining the success or failure of any given task. The system is called the “SIEGE engine™” system. This system is used to resolve any situation where a character is attempting to overcome a challenge. It is not used for combat, although both mechanics are similar.

When the game requires the character to make a saving throw, or when the character attempts to use a class ability or needs to make a general check against a specific attribute, the following formula is used to determine success – Attribute Check (d20 + Attribute Modifier + Character Level) >= Challenge Class (Challenge Base + Challenge Level). The modifiers and Challenge Class are determined by the type of conflict or task to be resolved. If the result of the d20 roll + the Modifiers equals or exceeds the Challenge Class, the roll, or “check,” is successful.

Thus, when the rules call for an attribute check, the player rolls a d20 and adds the character’s attribute modifier for the attribute being tested and adds the character’s level. If the sum is greater than or equal to the Challenge Class, the character is successful.

Challenge Class is calculated by adding the Challenge Base to the Challenge Level. Challenge Base will always be either 12 or 18, depending upon whether the attribute being tested is a Prime Attribute (base 12) or Secondary Attribute (base 18) of the character. Challenge Level is equal to the level of the challenge that the character is attempting to overcome, be it monster, trap, spell, or task. A monster’s challenge level is equal to its Hit Dice; a spell’s challenge level is equal to the level of its caster; a trap’s challenge level is equal to the level of the person who set it.

If a character is attempting a task (such as making an extraordinary jump, swinging on a rope and grabbing an object, or great feats of strength) that the CK requires a successful attribute check to complete, the CK assigns a challenge level to the task (a good way to do this is think of an equivalent monster). Only those actions which have a reasonable chance of failure and which can impact the game’s plot or story line in a significant manner need be resolved by an attribute check. The vast majority of activities taking place in a game are mundane and can be resolved through role playing and story telling.

“Natural 20 or 1”: There are two exceptions to the above rules. When the rules call for a check that is made by rolling a d20, a roll of “natural 20” always succeeds and a roll of “natural 1” always fails. In other words, no matter the modifiers (but barring some magical or extraordinary defense), if your character attempts to fire an arrow at a dragon, turn back a mummy, or track a faerie through a swamp, and you roll a d20 and the result showing on the face of the die is either 20 or 1, you automatically succeed or fail as the case may be.

Combat: As can be seen, combat is similar to the standard attribute check described above. When making a “to hit” roll, a player rolls a d20 and adds either the character’s Str or Dex modifier and his Bonus to Hit, which is dependant on class and level. If that sum equals or exceeds the opponent’s Armor Class (AC), the character has hit the opponent and deals damage.