CB's City of the Spider Queen v3.5 OOC

[kinem]

The javelin compartment is currently empty, but I'll put the food in there. It would be helpful to have a DM ruling on the limits of what can fit in the Quiver.

I don't think a composite bow could fit into the Quiver, because it is built with a recurve, "bow-shaped even when unstrung". In any case Prixo tends to have his bow out and within easy reach. So the bow compartment, like the javelin compartment, is only useful to him as miscellaneous storage space.

Prixo will purchase 30 days of trail rations and store it in these compartments as needed. I will assume he spends an extra 1 gp on bags and such for efficient storage that will not soil the Quiver.

I assume we can find water along the way, but how much does a typical waterskin hold in terms of days? Would a filled 'skin fit in the Quiver? Thanks.

 

[CanadienneBacon]

I agree that it would be beneficial for the players to have a DM ruling on what can fit into a Quiver of Ehlonna. I would like input from the rest of the group before declaring anything. There seem to be a few larger issues involved that we should probably resolve as a group before I come to a concrete decision.

With Quivers of Ehlonna (QoE), Heward's Handy Haversacks (HHH), and to a lesser degree with Bags of Holding (BoH) and Portable Holes (PH), we should come to a simple majority opinion as to whether what you can stick inside such a device is limited by the mouth or opening of the device. ie: can a composite longbow (which is fairly wide) fit through the mouth of a QoE, HHH, BoH, or PH? Could an anvil fit through? Can anything fit through as long as it doesn't exceed the internal storage limits? For BoH, HHH, and PH, the internal extradimensional space and weight limits are already defined in the DMG.

For a QoE, however, the storage limit isn't defined by cubic feet or weight. The DMG's QoE space is detailed in terms of numbers of three separate storage areas that can hold objects the "general size and shape" of 1.) 60 arrows, 2.) 18 javelins, and 3.) 6 bows. Are we then to infer from this description of the QoE that you can't store anything else other than those types of objects in it? Could a composite longbow fit in the bow compartment? If we do agree that objects other than items the "general size and shape" of those three categories can be stored in the QoE, does it seem reasonable to limit the cubic footage and/or weight to the equivalent weight limits of 60 arrows/ 18 javelins/ 6 bows?

We can spend the weekend hashing this out. If no one replies by Monday, I'll announce something then.

Right now, I'll put it out there that my personal inclination with regard to the QoE is that one waterskin of water probably could be stretched to two days of travel. Not very realistic, I know, but I'm comfortable with that for the purposes of travel. Water, however, is heavy stuff. One full waterskin weighs 4 lbs. The QoE doesn't really seem to be fashioned to carry waterskins. Up until this discussion, I wouldn't have tried to stick anything other than arrows/javelins/bows/staffs/spears in a QoE, mostly because the QoE costs less and weighs less than a HHH, PH, or BoH. To use it other than as described seems, to my eye, to be using it a way that circumvents the need to fork out more cash or be more encumbered. It has been suggested that players have a near obligation to "creatively" use their gears in ways other than what's described in the core books. I agree with that. This game is all about creativity. What I kind of sniff here, though, isn't about being creative but seems to have more to do with someone feeling as though they need to pay less money to be able to carry more. Apologies to the player in question--I'm not meaning to be rude or to call you out. I thought about this as I was falling asleep last night and decided at the end that I'd better speak my mind on this issue so that we can fix it and move on.

I will also say that faced with a month's journey, players should probably expect to be somewhat encumbered with gear at the start of the journey. As you eat through/drink through/use up your expendible stores, your load will probably lighten. If you feel you need a lot of gear to survive (and I'd be with you on that) but don't want to be more than light encumbered, you might consider using pack animals of one variety or another to carry the overage. We can get creative with what kind of pack animals are available for purchase...horses probably aren't the best option for Underdark travel. And that's the kind of creativity that I enjoy.

Again, I mean no offense to anyone. I would however, like to get this one decided on before Monday. Since this matters more to individual players than it does to the DM, players should have input here. We don't need to call anyone out in particular, either. I'd like a concensus all around about how you all want to deal with these kinds of things. Thanks.

 

[kinem]

It's not that I think he must carry so much, but he would like to be able to travel independently if need be. He could put his stuff on a group pack lizard or perhaps ask another PC to carry some of it, but then he's in trouble if he becomes seperated from the others or is at odds with them, and obviously he doesn't trust them yet. He could accept a medium encumbrance, which probably wouldn't slow the party since there is a dwarf, but that could delay him in combat and would be uncomfortable. In character, he has reason to explore the limits of what his items can do, and he will maximize any advantage he can get.

Since you asked for player opinions, I would say first of all that it would make no sense at all for the opening of a storage device not to limit what can go inside. So, as a DM I would not allow a composite bow inside the Quiver. Obviously this makes the bow compartment somewhat useless for storing bows, since anyone with a Strength bonus and a bit of cash is sure to have a composite bow, but then the designers of D&D are not known for considering the implications of anything.

I don't think the wooden Quiver would rupture like a bag would (and obviously being poked inside with sharp objects is no problem at all for it), but it is reasonable to set some kind of weight and volume limits, after which the compartment will be full and anything more would not go inside. I would say about 15 lbs for the arrow compartment, 40 lbs for the javelin compartment, and 60 lbs for the bow/spear/staff compartment.

While a bit cheaper than a BoH or HH, a Quiver would still not be a good choice if it were only to be used for miscellaneous storage because it holds less than the smallest BoH; it does not let you avoid an AOO when retrieving a miscellaneous item like a HH; and mainly, because only items of fairly small width can fit inside. But if you have one, you can use it as a crude BoH in addition to a quiver for your arrows.

In my understanding, the main reason to have the magic Quiver at all is that if you have more than one type of arrow (such as poisoned and non-poisoned), it will produce the one you want; with a regular quiver you would have to choose randomly.

 

[Voadam]

I'm a literalist for interpreting things like the QoE, only appropriate sized objects benefit from the magic, although a composite bow is a bow IMV. Food would only count as javelin shape if it was something like bamboo stalks for a panda.

Flavor wise I would explain it as sympathetic magic, a magical storage quiver only functions for appropriate weapon like shapes, not general storage.

That's the way I do it in my campaigns.

I'm fine with however you want to run things though CB, magic item functions are for the DM to determine IMO.

 

[Voadam]

Before we head off into the underdark, how do you handle survival checks for gathering food and water in the underdark?

 

[Guest 11456]

Quivers of Ehlonna/Efficient Quiver (SRD):

This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about twenty arrows. It has three distinct portions, each with a nondimensional space allowing it to store far more than would normally be possible. The first and smallest one can contain up to sixty objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. The second slightly longer compartment holds up to eighteen objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. The third and longest portion of the case contains as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard. The efficient quiver weighs the same no matter what’s placed inside it.

1st: 60 objects of the same general size and shape as an arrow. So, the equivalence of 3 quivers about 9 pounds total weight. Max of 60 objects.

2nd: 18 objects of the same general size and shape as a javelin. So, about 36 pounds total weight. An elongated quiver shape. Max of 18 objects.

3rd: 6 objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). So, about 36 pounds (spears are the heaviest in the list of possibilities) total weight. Another elongated quiver shape. Max of 6 objects.

About the size issue, from the description, it would appear to be the same general size and shape as a regular quiver. I'm pretty sure that even a regular bow won't fit through the opening of a quiver. So it must have the ability to stretch in order for the larger objects to pass though the opening.

 

[Mellubb]

Edit: I'm curious and I haven't researched...does anyone know whether being immune to poison implies automatic oblivion or knowledge of poisoning attempts? For the purpose of our game here, I'm comfortable saying that poison immunity implies knowledge of the attempt, but for another game in another setting I might be inclined to rule otherwise. Is there a supporting rule out there that anyone can dig up?

I would personally say immunity does not imply knowledge. Take War of the worlds for instance. At the end of the moviethe aliens died from bacteria that we are immmune to. If we didn't have science to prove it we wouldn't know it was there. But, it is up to you and how you imagine it happening.

 

[wmasters]

I'd agree that it doesn't imply knowledge. OOC, I'm not sure I could identify it as such if I was poisoned. I'd experience the symptoms, but not necessarily be able to identify the cause. If you didn't experience the symptoms either, then I'd say you would be unlikely to be able to recognise it. At least, without having some skill or knowledge about poisons.

 

[CanadienneBacon]

With regard to immunity imparting knowledge of a poisoning attempt, I'm comfortable with the ruling I handed out last week on that. You won't necessarily know what kind of poison was used, but you'll know someone or something tried. This is a particular gimme for this particular campaign and I think you'll all benefit from it, so I'm inclined to grant it.

With regard to the QoE, I need about another two hours to finish something up and then I'll come back here and post a decision. Will probably just edit this post to include the particulars, so you may need to scroll back up.

Edit:

Quiver of Ehlonna/Efficient Quiver. The quiver, being designed to hold sharp pointy objects, will not rupture with normal wear and tear. I won't say that it will never rupture, because that's far too broad a stroke for my taste, but the quiver would have to be subjected to a huge amount of duress before it would break while wielding pointy objects. I won't define the interior extra-dimensional cubic footage of the Quiver's compartments because, according to the item description in the DMG, the space is "non-dimensional," and I don't want to hamstring us on this issue. Item description as given by the DMG, my post below, weight limits, and our common sense will be sufficient to determine use.

Compartment #1. Designed to hold (as per the description in the 3.5 DMG) 60 items the general size and shape of an arrow. Weight limit 9 lbs. If no arrows are in the compartment, then the compartment may be filled with miscellaneous items, provided the weight limit is not exceeded. If an arrow or arrows is/are in the compartment, then the compartment cannot hold anything else other than more arrows. A max of 60 non-arrow items will fit in this compartment. Basically, it's a magical space for either arrows or other small stuff--but only one or the other, not a mix of both.

Compartment #2. Designed to hold 18 items the general size and shape of a javelin. Weight limit 36 lbs. If no javelins are in the compartment, then the compartment may be filled with miscellaneous items, provided the weight limit is not exceeded. If a javelin or javelins are in the compartment, then the compartment cannot hold anything else other than more javlins. A max of 18 non-javelin items will fit in this compartment. Again, basically it's a magical space for either javelins or other stuff--but not a mix of both.

Compartment #3. Designed to hold 6 items the general size and shape of a bow, staff, or spear. Being designed primarily for bows and the like, a composite bow will fit into this compartment. Weight limit 36 lbs. If no bows, staffs, or spears (or the equivalent weapon) are in the compartment, then the compartment may be filled with miscellaneous items, provided the weight limit is not exceeded. If a bow, staff, or spear (or the equivalent weapon) is in the compartment, then the compartment cannot hold anything else other than more bows, staffs, or spears (or equivalent weapons). A max of 6 non-bow, staff, or spear items will fit in this compartment.

Thank you all for the valuable input. Prixo may therefore use any of the three compartments to store items other than what's originally described in the DMG entry for the Quiver, but please note the weight and item number limitations, and that you may not mix and match items per compartment. I normally tend to be something of a literalist myself when it comes to what stacks/works/is allowed, so to Voadam, I do understand your point of view as well.

 

[Voadam]

Wait, did I just become the royal taste tester?