[CDiv] Spikes Spell
- Thread starter Pinotage
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kjenks
First Post
It's even better than it might seem at first glance. The damage bonus (Spikes references Brambles) is unnamed, so it stacks with enhancement bonuses.
Spikes is especially nifty when cast on a Maul (Complete Warrior):
Maul 15gp --------d8 (s)--------d10 (m)---------x3 Crit--------20lbs------Type Bludgeon
1d10 (20/x3) is okay for a two-handed martial weapon, but it's especially with Spikes, with +2 enhancement bonus to attack rolls, up to +10 unnamed damage bonus, (19-20/x3) crit. And if you blow an Exotic Weapon Proficiency on it, you can use the huge thing one-handed.
This is the same damage as a greatclub (PH), but the crit is better.
On the other hand, since a greatclub is a larger version of a club (per PH description), you might be able to use a Shillelagh spell (normally limited to club and quarterstaff) on a nonmagical greatclub, increasing its damage to 3d8. Depending on your DM, you might be able to then add Greater Magic Weapon and Spikes spell for some really nifty damage.
But your DM may decide that once a club has been affected by a Greater Magic Weapon spell, it's no longer a valid target for a Shillelagh spell, so you lose the damage die increase.
Check out how all four spells are worded (Shillelagh, Greater Magic Weapon, Brambles and Spikes), and check out the PH description of the greatclub, then ask your DM.
Spikes is especially nifty when cast on a Maul (Complete Warrior):
Maul 15gp --------d8 (s)--------d10 (m)---------x3 Crit--------20lbs------Type Bludgeon
1d10 (20/x3) is okay for a two-handed martial weapon, but it's especially with Spikes, with +2 enhancement bonus to attack rolls, up to +10 unnamed damage bonus, (19-20/x3) crit. And if you blow an Exotic Weapon Proficiency on it, you can use the huge thing one-handed.
This is the same damage as a greatclub (PH), but the crit is better.
On the other hand, since a greatclub is a larger version of a club (per PH description), you might be able to use a Shillelagh spell (normally limited to club and quarterstaff) on a nonmagical greatclub, increasing its damage to 3d8. Depending on your DM, you might be able to then add Greater Magic Weapon and Spikes spell for some really nifty damage.
But your DM may decide that once a club has been affected by a Greater Magic Weapon spell, it's no longer a valid target for a Shillelagh spell, so you lose the damage die increase.
Check out how all four spells are worded (Shillelagh, Greater Magic Weapon, Brambles and Spikes), and check out the PH description of the greatclub, then ask your DM.
shilsen said:
Hmmm. While I can ask my DM, as a player I think I share the responsibility in keeping things balanced. I might argue for 1 minute per level instead, which seems more reasonable? I think if you compare it to greater magic weapon, it's a better spell despite the limited items to cast it on. Reducing the duration goes a long way in fixing it.
Pinotage
Until it might get errataed, it's an hour a level.
Really, the big benefit of Spikes beyond the effects of Brambles is the doubling of the threat range and the hour a level duration, the increase to a +2 enhancement really isn't all that amazing.
If you use four spells in proper succession, by the RAW, on a club or quarterstaff you could get the following.
1st: Shillelagh - grants a +1 enhancement bonus, increases damage by two size categories (2d6 dmg) 1 min/lvl
2nd: Brambles - grants a +1 enhancement bonus (overlaps), changes damage type to piercing/bludgeoning, deals an additional untyped +1 damage/caster level (max +10). 1 rnd/lvl
3rd: Spikes - grants a +2 enhancement bonus (overlaps), same as brambles, but since the additional damage is untyped it might stack. 1 hour/lvl
4th: Greater Magic Weapon - grants a +1 enhancement bonus/4 caster levels (overlaps), 1 hour/lvl. (this is only useful 12th level or later)
So at 20th level your "piddly" club will be dealing 2d6+10+10+5 of bludgeoning/piercing damage.
Not that most DM's will let brambles and spikes stack, but they don't state they don't and since they're different spells without a typed bonus to damage, they very well could. Fun for druids.
Really, the big benefit of Spikes beyond the effects of Brambles is the doubling of the threat range and the hour a level duration, the increase to a +2 enhancement really isn't all that amazing.
If you use four spells in proper succession, by the RAW, on a club or quarterstaff you could get the following.
1st: Shillelagh - grants a +1 enhancement bonus, increases damage by two size categories (2d6 dmg) 1 min/lvl
2nd: Brambles - grants a +1 enhancement bonus (overlaps), changes damage type to piercing/bludgeoning, deals an additional untyped +1 damage/caster level (max +10). 1 rnd/lvl
3rd: Spikes - grants a +2 enhancement bonus (overlaps), same as brambles, but since the additional damage is untyped it might stack. 1 hour/lvl
4th: Greater Magic Weapon - grants a +1 enhancement bonus/4 caster levels (overlaps), 1 hour/lvl. (this is only useful 12th level or later)
So at 20th level your "piddly" club will be dealing 2d6+10+10+5 of bludgeoning/piercing damage.
Not that most DM's will let brambles and spikes stack, but they don't state they don't and since they're different spells without a typed bonus to damage, they very well could. Fun for druids.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Actually, some DMs will be considerably more restrictive than that. Shillelagh only works on a non-magical club or quarterstaff and, if the club later becomes even temporarily magical due to a brambles, spikes, etc. it could be suppressed like an enlarge person is suppressed if the subject is polymorphed into a non-humanoid.
Furthermore, some DMs will rule that "a +2 enhancement bonus to hit and a +1/lvl bonus to damage" intends to extend the enhancement descriptor to both the attack and damage and thus it does not stack with Greater Magic Weapon or brambles.
Even then, Spikes is utterly broken. It combines keen edge (with 6x duration) with greater magic weapon and is equal to a clvl 16 greater magic weapon (wielded 1 handed) at level 5--clvl 12 if wielded 2 handed. By level 10, it's roughly equal to a clvl 20 greater magic weapon (wielded 2-handed; it's impossible to do as well with GMW on a 1-handed weapon). So, it's greater magic weapon with a much much better scaling than even 3.0 GMW and it gets keen edge to boot. Only working on weapons with a wooden striking surface is NOT even close to enough of a restriction to justify that.
I've seen far too many fighters trade their specialized weapon for a spiked club to think the spell belongs in the game.
Furthermore, some DMs will rule that "a +2 enhancement bonus to hit and a +1/lvl bonus to damage" intends to extend the enhancement descriptor to both the attack and damage and thus it does not stack with Greater Magic Weapon or brambles.
Even then, Spikes is utterly broken. It combines keen edge (with 6x duration) with greater magic weapon and is equal to a clvl 16 greater magic weapon (wielded 1 handed) at level 5--clvl 12 if wielded 2 handed. By level 10, it's roughly equal to a clvl 20 greater magic weapon (wielded 2-handed; it's impossible to do as well with GMW on a 1-handed weapon). So, it's greater magic weapon with a much much better scaling than even 3.0 GMW and it gets keen edge to boot. Only working on weapons with a wooden striking surface is NOT even close to enough of a restriction to justify that.
I've seen far too many fighters trade their specialized weapon for a spiked club to think the spell belongs in the game.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Elder-Basilisk said:
Becomes even temporarily magical due to, say, Shillelagh?
(And whether or not Enlarge Person is suppressed is debated, too
)-Hyp.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Testament said:
True insanity yes.... (though a falchion is worse against crittable foes).
However, many DMs will rule that a slashing or piercing weapon--even one with a wooden blade--does not have "a wooden striking surface." That verbiage is quite easily interpreted as referring to bludgeoning weapons which have striking surfaces rather than cutting edges, etc.
