Celestial Disciple PrC

[Nifft]

Hi, please let me know if this is over-the-top. I'm trying to make a PrC like the Dragon Disciple, but for Half-Celestials.


Celestial Disciple (CeD)

Requirements:
- Race: Aasimar
- Alignment: Any Good
- Skills: Knowlege (Religion) 8, Knowlege (the Planes) 8


HD: d8 (per Outsider Advancement)
BAB: as Fighter (per Outsider Advancement)
Saves: All Good (per Outsider Advancement)
Skill Points: 8 + Int mod (per Outsider Advancement and Half-Celestial Template)
Class Skills: Knowlege(any), Craft(any), Profession(any), Listen, Spot, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Search (from various Celestial's skill lists)

Granted Powers by Level:
1: Low-Light Vision, +1 Fort save vs. Poison
2: +1 (Str, Con, Wis, Cha), +1 Fort save vs. Poison, Celestial Immunity
3: +1 (All Abilities), +1 Fort save vs. Poison, Celestial Immunity
4: +1 (Str, Con, Wis, Cha), +1 Fort save vs. Poison, Celestial Immunity
5: +1 (All Abilities), +1 Natural Armor, Celestial Immunity, Type changes to "Outsider"

Celestial Immunity: Each time this power is granted, the character chooses immunity to one of the following: acid, cold, disease, and electricity.

Buyable Powers: The following powers can be purchased for XP after the level indicated. Each power is usable one per day per purchase. Powers may be purchased more than once, in which case they will work more than once per day.

Level 1:
30xp: Light
30xp: Protection from Evil
70xp: Bless

Level 2:
100xp: Aid
100xp: Detect Evil

Level 3:
150xp: Neutralize poison
200xp: Cure serious wounds
250xp: Holy smite

Level 4:
300xp: Remove disease
400xp: Holy Word
400xp: Dispel evil

Level 5:
400xp: Wings (permanent, may only be taken once)
500xp: Holy Aura
500xp: Hallow
800xp: Symbol
1200xp: Summon monster IX (celestials only)
1500xp: Resurrection


So, what do people think? Too many skill points? Does anyone like the "buy-powers-for-XP" system?

-- Nifft

 

[Mr Fidgit]

all of this is IMHO

1) this PrC is way too powerful in the stat increases alone (the dragon disciple only gets 8 ability score raises over 9 levels of the PrC, the celestial disciple gets 20 over 5 levels)

2) the dragon disciple is built so any non dragon (with the right requirements) can gain dragon-like abilities. the required race: aasimar doesn't make sense to me (they're already partially celestial). i think the race requirement should be any non celestial or planetouched creature

3) the skill points are little too high as well. the dragon disciple only gets 2+Int mod (like a spellcaster) not 6+ (as a dragon does)

4) i think the idea of buying spell-like abilities is cool, but needs some adjustment. for example, an aasimar could enter the Prc at 6th level (minimum) and buy resurrection as a spell-like ability at level 11. they're ECL +1, so effectively they could resurrect someone once a day at character level 12. a cleric doesn't get access to resurrection until level 13. a better example would be Summon Monster IX at (equivalent) character level 12, whereas no spellcaster would have access until level 17


i don't mean to sound too harsh, i think a Celestial Disciple could be a great PrC

 

[Nifft]

Harsh (yet constructive ) commentary is welcome.

I'm not sure how to "water down" the PrC while remaining true to the Template.

Perhaps making all "buyable powers" available only after 5 levels, AND each after a specific Knowlege (Religion) and/or Knowlege (The Planes) value, which would ensure a minimum character level, would help? I prefer making some minor powers (Light, Prot. from Evil, Bless, etc.) available early, as "candy".

On the other hand, giving out earlier powers which are less flexible is a valid trade-off. In other words, just getting a power earlier than a cleric could have the spell isn't necessarily unbalanced.

I suppose we could make the PrC 10 level (like Dragon Disciple) but I'm just not sure the Template has enough features to keep someone interested for that many levels.

As to Skill Points, note that the class has only six real Class Skills (+ Profession, Knowlege and Craft). 2+Int could work, but I think then we need to expand the Class Skill list.

Abilities: How the heck to balance this? The PrC really gives nothing but ability scores and immunities...

-- Nifft

 

[Mr Fidgit]

just to compare...

the half-dragon template

HD +1 die type (max d12)
Speed: no change unless base creature is size Large or larger
AC +4 (natural)
Damage: half-dragons get claw and bite attacks, damage based on size
Special Attacks: breath weapon, only once a day
Special Qualities: low-light and darkvision, immune to sleep and paralysis, plus one immunity based on dragon type
Abilities: +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha


the half-celestial template

HD no change
Speed: 75% chance of wings (no size requirement)
AC +1 (natural)
Damage: no natural weapons
Special Attacks: list of spell-like abilities, based on level
Special Qualities: low-light vision; immune to acid, cold, disease, electricity; +4 Fort save vs poison
Abilities: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha


now the Dragon Disciple PrC

HD increases die type over the levels of the Prc
race: any non-dragon or non-half-dragon
skills: knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks
language: draconic
spells: cast arcane spells without preparation

BAB as cleric
saves: Fort and Will good
over the levels: armor increases slowly (+1 at lvls 1, 4, 7 and 10)
natural attacks at level 2
stat increases (+2 each) at levels 2, 4, 7, 9
(possible) size increase at level 5
breath weapon: gain at level 3, increases incrimentally at levels 8 and 10
wings at level 9
Dragon Apotheosis at level 10 (full benefit from half-dragon template)


possible Celestial Disciple...

HD 1d8 (not a bad thing, usually reserved for fighter-type or cleric PrCs)

race: any non-celestial or non-planetouched

skills: knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks (??? - this would give any
class with knowledge (the planes) (bards and wizards) access to the class way earlier than anyone else - maybe any skill prereq should be removed)

language: celestial (not a tough requirement...)

spells: i don't think you originally intended for this to be a PrC for
spellcasters...so, none

BAB as cleric or fighter (this would depend on the 'relative power' of the class - if it was easily accessable by anyone at mid-levels, i'd go with cleric)

saves: note that the DD PrC has two good saves -- both dragons and outsiders have all good saves. if the celestial disciple has all good saves, i would definitely make the BAB as a cleric. if it was only one or two good saves, i think the fighter BAB would work

over the levels, you could spead out the half-celestial benefits...

you could make disease immunity, lowlight vision a 1st level benefit

and maybe +2 vs poison at first, the other +2 at a later level (6 or 7)

2nd, maybe the +1 armor,

the half-celestial has a total of 20 points of stat increases, so you could spead them out in +2s (as the DD PrC) at odd levels for a total of +10 to stats by level 10

immunities could also be spread out over the 10 levels, 5 points of resistance at 3, 6 and 9 (with full immunities at 10)


Celestial Apotheosis at level 10 (of course, giving the full template benefits)

you could include the buyable powers open to every level (scaled with the benefits, as in your PrC) and the issue of wings buyable as well -- however, anyone taking this PrC could choose not to buy the spell-like abilities knowing they'll have access to all of them when they reach level 10 and full Half-Celestial status

(so the minor powers could be gained per PrC level as well)


any prerequisites should make the class unattainable until (at least) 6th level, like the DD PrC

a huge factor for the DD is that its built for bards and sorcerers who have to give up gaining spell levels for all 10 levels of the PrC (they only gain 7 new known spells)

a PC should have a reason not to take a PrC, so they need to give up something. if this PrC was built for spellcasters, you could take away increasing spell levels (as the DD PrC), but that's tough to include for any other class...

i've rambled on enough for now....(must...reboot.....brain....)

 

[Oni]

With things like this, I don't feel that it is necessary to completely duplicate the template in question. What your really going for is a feel and as long as you replicate the feel of the base template then I think you have succeeded even if it is not mechanically identical

 

[Mr Fidgit]

i agree

i just wanted to post some options if Nifft wanted to make the Celestial Disciple closer to the Dragon Disciple (using the Dragon Disciple as a model for a 10 level PrC)

otherwise, i would really jack up the requirements for the original version of the Celestial Disciple....

 

[Nifft]

10-level PrC

Hmm, as a 10-level PrC I'd give away many of the powers without XP cost.

Celestial Disciple (CeD) in 10 Levels

Requirements:
- Alignment: Any Good
- Language: Celestial
- BAB: +5
- Skill: Knowlege(Religion) or Knowlege(The Planes): 6 Ranks
- Special: Peaceful Contact with Sponsoring Celestial (this probably entails a quest, perhaps a minor quest for each level of the PrC, perhaps one major quest to gain level 1 and one major quest to gain level 10)

Benefits:
BAB: As Cleric
Hit Die: d8
Good Saves: Will and Fortitude
Bad Save: Reflex
Skill Points: 2+Int Mod
Class Skills: Knowlege(any), Craft(any), Profession(any), Listen, Spot, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Search

Spells listed below are spell-like abilities, and work once per day unless otherwise noted.

Granted Powers by Level:
1) Low-Light Vision, +1 racial bonus to Save vs. Poison; Protection from Evil 3/day, Bless
2) +1 Con, Wis; Aid, Detect Evil
3) Elemental Resistance +5 (Acid, Cold, Electricity), +1 racial bonus to Save vs. Poison; Cure Serious Wounds, Neutralize Poison
4) +1 Str, Cha; Holy Smite, Remove Disease
5) Elemental Resistance +10 (Acid, Cold, Electricity), +1 Racial Bonus to Save vs. Poison; Dispel Evil
6) +1 Con, Wis; Holy Word
7) Elemental Resistance +15 (Acid, Cold, Electricity), +1 Racial Bonus to Save vs. Poison; Holy Aura 3/day, Hallow
8) +1 Str, Cha; Symbol
9) Elemental Resistance +20 (Acid, Cold, Electricity); Summon Monster IX (Celestials Only)
10) Celestial Apothesis; Resurrection

Celestial Apothesis: The character becomes a half-celestial. Her Type changes to "Outsider", and she permanently gains +2 to all abilities. She gains a +1 racial bonus to her Natural Armor rating, and becomes completely immune to Acid, Cold and Electricity. If she wishes, she can grow wings, which allow movement at double her normal rate with Good maneuverability.


EDIT: changed Requirements from two Saves at +6 to BAB +5
EDIT-2: added Skill requirement

 

[Oni]

I don't think the save requirements are a very good idea. It would make the class impossible for most single class characters to obtain, and even most multiclass combinations. the varience between good and bad saves is too much. One the othe hand a cleric/monk could qualify in 4 levels which breaks the unwritten rule of no PrC should be available until the 6th character level.

 

[Nifft]

I'm open to Requirements suggestions...

-- Nifft

 

[Mr Fidgit]

you could add a BAB of +6...

if the save prereqs are meant to force a single-class cleric (for example) to wait until they're 8th level before they're fully qualified, then there's no reason not to add a BAB requirement

as Oni said, a cleric 2/monk 2 could qualify based only on the saves needed, but that character's BAB is only +2. so if you put the BAB +6 in, the earliest any character could get into the PrC after 6th level (cleric 2/ monk 2/fighter-type 4 - level 6)

i think...