CHA, huh, what is it good for?

[ProfessorCirno]

Dumb is intelligence so leave that to a different thread.

Heck, it could be Wizards agrees with this line of thinking as Physical Attractiveness is not part of Charisma in 4e. But there has been a stat for it, comeliness. And other games like White have had one as well (appearance).

Comeliness gave you penalties based on your race.

Hmmmmm I wonder why that died

White Wolf games work with "attractiveness" because a) it's one of many non-combat stats and b) the games are, by and large much, much more robust outside of combat. D&D, when it even has non-combat rules, leans towards "Well uh roll this skill ok done back to killing orcs!" The emphasis has never been on big political subterfuge (unless it involves killing kobolds who are using mind control).

 

[Crothian]

Comeliness gave you penalties based on your race.

Hmmmmm I wonder why that died

It was an attribute and attributes are modified positive or negatively depending on race. By your logic attributes should have all died.

But I do thank you for coming in and showing one way that people mess up charisma; they define it by their own terms and not by what the book says.

 

[Sunseeker]

It was an attribute and attributes are modified positive or negatively depending on race. By your logic attributes should have all died.

Not really. To say X race is more or less beautiful implies that there is a shared, centralized standard of what is beautiful. I find it hard to believe that Orcs, Dragonborn, Elves and Humans would all define the same things as "attractive".

Certainly, definitions of "attractive" stem from what is best for promoting the species, but could a hulking, muscular orc-woman be the best way of breeding the orc species? Could be. Therefore, that would be attractive, not less.

 

[Crothian]

Not really. To say X race is more or less beautiful implies that there is a shared, centralized standard of what is beautiful. I find it hard to believe that Orcs, Dragonborn, Elves and Humans would all define the same things as "attractive".

It's a fantasy world with many many flawed areas in the game. It has standards for evil and good. It doesn't really matter what I or you or anyone believes, according to the definition of charisma it is there.

Certainly, definitions of "attractive" stem from what is best for promoting the species, but could a hulking, muscular orc-woman be the best way of breeding the orc species? Could be. Therefore, that would be attractive, not less.

The game does not define what traits are attractive nor do I think the game cares what they are.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The game does not define what traits are attractive nor do I think the game cares what they are.

Uh, yes, it does.

Ok, elves are more dexteritous then orcs. That's objective - elves are naturally better at shooting bows or tumbling. Orcs on the other hand are stronger. Again, that's objective - it's strength, muscle mass, etc, etc.

But attraction? The second you state "Orcs are less attractive then elves," you have taken something unobjective and changed it to try to make it objective. You are literally stating "If you find orcs more attractive then elves you are wrong."

 

[Crothian]

You are literally stating "If you find orcs more attractive then elves you are wrong."

I'm not saying this, the books are saying this. According to the books though races that have a higher average charisma would have a better "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Now, if you want to go through the monster manual and track the charisma of each creature and then try to come up with common traits between high charisma and low charisma creatures....

 

[Sunseeker]

It's a fantasy world with many many flawed areas in the game. It has standards for evil and good. It doesn't really matter what I or you or anyone believes, according to the definition of charisma it is there.

Right, it's saying it's "more attractive", however, it does not go into what DEFINES the attractiveness. You could be a 20 charisma she-orc who looks something akin to the Hulk, and claim that that kind of woman is what orcs say are beautiful.

The game says charisma defines how attractive you are. YOU define what attractiveness is.

But attraction? The second you state "Orcs are less attractive then elves," you have taken something unobjective and changed it to try to make it objective. You are literally stating "If you find orcs more attractive then elves you are wrong."

THIS.

I'm not saying this, the books are saying this. According to the books though races that have a higher average charisma would have a better "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Exactly, it says what stat attractivness is defined by. It does not say what attractivness is defined by.

 

[Celebrim]

But attraction? The second you state "Orcs are less attractive then elves," you have taken something unobjective and changed it to try to make it objective. You are literally stating "If you find orcs more attractive then elves you are wrong."

Yes.

It is after all a fantasy. You are allowed to do things like that. In a fantasy, the shadows on the cave wall are cast by things with an absolute and tangible existance. In a fantasy, Beauty gets to be a personified sentient being and holds the absolute right to judge what is and isn't beauty, and her judgment when so rendered isn't an opinion. If you disagree with it, you are literally wrong.

Now, we can argue over how Beauty is or ought to be personified, but in a fantasy you don't have much grounds in claiming that there is no objective truth. Truth will show up and tell you otherwise.

 

[Celebrim]

Right, it's saying it's "more attractive", however, it does not go into what DEFINES the attractiveness. You could be a 20 charisma she-orc who looks something akin to the Hulk, and claim that that kind of woman is what orcs say are beautiful.

I'm not disagreeing with you exactly, but I think you don't take your argument quite far enough. If your she-hulk has 20 charisma, then by golly not only do the orcs think she is beautiful, but everyone agrees that she is. That's what having a single standard of beauty after all means. Beauty is something that everyone objectively agrees to. In a world of absolute standards of beauty, races with comliness penalties know that they are objectively hideous and tend to see themselves that way. In such a world, if the she-orc is the absolute standard of beauty (rather than just one green hued facet of it), then human males probably prefer their mates to be well-chiseled body builders that use copius green body paint.

'Green Orion Slave Girl' are probably the order of the day in such a universe.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm not disagreeing with you exactly, but I think you don't take your argument quite far enough. If your she-hulk has 20 charisma, then by golly not only do the orcs think she is beautiful, but everyone agrees that she is.

No, I disagree, while Charisma is the indicator of a high possibility of such things, it's not the be-all, end-all of them. Said "attractiveness" is not specified to be universal, you could be the hottest she-orc in all the lands, but humans still think you're repulsive. That said, they'll still listen to your eloquence when you try to convince them of something.

That's what having a single standard of beauty after all means. Beauty is something that everyone objectively agrees to. In a world of absolute standards of beauty, races with comliness penalties know that they are objectively hideous and tend to see themselves that way.

I think it's rather subjective to say that orcs or X other race actually see themselves as less attractive. The attractiveness "standard" is, as was said above, put forth by the "beauty god". She ranked them lower, but that still doesn't mean they see themselves as lower.

In such a world, if the she-orc is the absolute standard of beauty (rather than just one green hued facet of it), then human males probably prefer their mates to be well-chiseled body builders that use copius green body paint.

'Green Orion Slave Girl' are probably the order of the day in such a universe.

Again, I diagree, I think "attractivness" still falls within specific societal contexts. Because there either are those contexts, and every society has different ideas of beauty, or there are no contexts, and all societies are the same.

Since all D&D societies are not the same, they must not have the same social standards for beauty. Therefore, charisma only makes one attractive within those contexts.