Challenge to WotC: Initiative

[Cabled]

Otherwise, WotC reps have said that they were "bending over backward" to give us info. It cannot both be true that they are bending over backwards to give us info, and that they refuse to give us the smallest piece of requested info possible.


RC

Depending on the amount of papers, "mother-may-I's", and emails needed for those reps to get permission to divulge even the smallest snippet, based on current company policy regarding 4e, both statements could indeed be true.

As an example, I work for a company that is considered an "authority" although I myself am not an authority, and the number of permissions I need before I can make a statement regarding company activities...something that might be taken as a "company statement" instead of a "my statement"...is staggering. The same may be happening here.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Depending on the amount of papers, "mother-may-I's", and emails needed for those reps to get permission to divulge even the smallest snippet, based on current company policy regarding 4e, both statements could indeed be true.

Both could be true if the statement was "I, an employee of WotC, am doing as much as I can, but company policy prohibits me." If the statement is that WotC as a company is doing as much as it can, both cannot be true.

I suspect that WotC has policies prohibiting release of information....possibly even a specific timetable by which they want to release information. I very much doubt "initiative rules" are specific to that timetable, should it exist. Init is a kind of non-entity that WotC should be able to release without impacting any scheduling already in place.

IMHO, of course, and if they really are willing to tell us what they can (and here I mean as a corporation, not as individuals).

RC

EDIT: I'll grant that, under some scenarios, it might take more than a week to get releases, but then a polite note, "We're seeing what we can do, and will get back to you by December 1st" would be sufficient to meet the "challenge" IMHO, so long as they then did get back to us by then.

 

[Cadfan]

The problem is, responding to your challenge is just giving in to the poisonous wotc/fan relationship some fans insist upon cultivating.

I can't be sure how WOTC will respond, if at all. But from my experience, what I'd do is I'd realize that your challenge just made releasing Initiative rules impossible.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The problem is, responding to your challenge is just giving in to the poisonous wotc/fan relationship some fans insist upon cultivating.

I can't be sure how WOTC will respond, if at all. But from my experience, what I'd do is I'd realize that your challenge just made releasing Initiative rules impossible.

Sorry, but I am afraid that accepting that is just giving in to the poisonous relationship that some folks insist upon cultivating. You know, the one that includes ridiculing anyone who voices a legitimate concern. Unwillingness to explore those concerns like adults is, IMHO, the #1 contributor to the poisonous atmosphere you are describing.

It was not something that happened with 3e. Again, by this point, WotC had a clear message and was giving out clear information. I have recently gone through the Dragons leading up to 3e, and I am amazed at the difference....it was far more than I was expecting.

There are some things I really like about the 4e design direction (insofar as it has been revealled), some things that make me wonder whether or not the designers took enough into consideration when attempting to fix problems, some things that remind me of my own house rules (an easily accessed Faerie, fighting styles based on weapons, etc.), and some things that I just don't like (tieflings and warforged as core).

I will readily admit that I am really not happy with the DI.

I will certainly agree that some fans can contribute to "the poisonous wotc/fan relationship", but telling us "We're bending over backwards to tell you everything we can" while telling us nothing of substance, to my mind, is certainly cultivating poison. Actually being responsive, and supplying some real answers, would do a hell of a lot, IMHO, toward removing the poisonous atmosphere.

IMHO. YOMV, and obviously does.

RC

 

[Charwoman Gene]

IMHO, toward removing the poisonous atmosphere.

No one has HO's on the internet. If it were humble you wouldn't spread it.

The way to stop a poisonous atmosphere is to STOP SPEWING POISON.

It's like threatening to shoot a hostage if someone doesn't comply with your demands and blaming the other person for killing the hostage. (In action and logic, not severity.)

 

[Lackhand]

Never mind -- in-joke on the previous page. Thread too fast!

 

[Raven Crowking]

The way to stop a poisonous atmosphere is to STOP SPEWING POISON.

"I have concerns" is not spewing poison.

"Your concerns are stupid/not interesting/not worth it/shut up" is.

"I'd like this information" is not spewing poison.

"We're bending over backwards to give you information, and, BTW, no to all requests" is.

IMO, of course. YOMV.

Now, me, I don't equate asking for information with "spewing poison". I tend to think that, if you don't ask for information, then you shouldn't complain about not getting it. I tend to think that the init rules, in particular, aren't likely to be so Top Secret that the information isn't releaseable.

Of course, if might be that WotC doesn't release any information. But (again IMO) uncovering that "we're bending over backwards" is untrue isn't spewing poison; saying "we're bending over backwards" when you are not is.

Now, I'm willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt. I've asked for information.

Some folks on this thread seem to think "we're bending over backwards" is untrue; they're already "apologizing" for WotC. They seem to think that WotC wants an appearance of willingness to supply information without actually doing so. And, they seem to think that anything which points out that "The Emperor Has No Clothes" is "spewing poison."

I tend to believe that an apology/explaination will be unnecessary. I tend to think that WotC does want to release what it can, and that it just needs some direction about what might be welcome that isn't so "big" that it might cut sales of their "WotC Presents" holiday books. IOW, I am willing to believe that the Emperor is dressed.

I might be wrong, of course. But thinking that WotC will respond is hardly spewing poison.


RC

 

[kenmarable]

Initiative will be familiar to anyone who has played a role-playing game. But will be easier and funner, make life simpler for the DM, and give players more options.

Plus we all just shake our head and laugh when we see someone using 3.5 initiative. It's just so awkward and painful... I wish we could've shared 4e initiative with them.

 

[mhensley]

I hate to break it to you, but there will be no initiative in 4e. 4e will be real-time, not turn-based. Every player rolls dice and shouts his actions at the dm as fast as they can. This keeps the action fast and makes sure that everyone at the table is constantly involved in the game and not building towers with his dice.

 

[Umbran]

But (again IMO) uncovering that "we're bending over backwards" is untrue isn't spewing poison; saying "we're bending over backwards" when you are not is.

I'm not at all convinced you're correct with such a flat statement.

Folks out here may choose to pass judgement, but I doubt any of them are really privy to enough information to know how much effort is going on behind the scenes. So, you may not think they are bending over backwards, when it sure feels like they are to them. It is not "spewing poison" to be working hard, but have someone else say you aren't.

Meanwhile, railing at them and raising bad opinion of them when you don't have the information to judge may or may not be poison, but it sure isn't nice.

Point of view alters perspective. And the Golden Rule applies, as always.