Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Upper_Krust]

Yo UK!

Hiya mate!

Kinda. I was wondering about the EL of a group of monsters with different CRs (since groups of monsters with the same CRs are covered clearly).

Ah, I see now. I just an hour ago worked out a brand new (and hopefully faster and easier) method of determining Party ECL and Monster CRs for multiple characters of different CR/ECLs.

Its pretty simple, you check what percentage the CR/ECL represents against the highest in the group, then column 2 gives you the breakdown in terms of what that percentage means in terms of Encounter Level.

e.g. lets say your highest monster is CR 32 but you also have 10 x CR 17 monsters. The CR 32 monster = 100% for both CR & EL. While the CR 17 monsters = 50% CR and 12% EL. So the total EL percentage would be 220% in this case, meaning this group is the equivalent of 2.2 CR 32 monsters, etc.

Still work in progress, I'll be sure and have it all exlained in v6.

 

[Edheldur]

Hey UK!

Still work in progress, I'll be sure and have it all exlained in v6.

Carefull with the v6 mention or you'll be bombarded (again) with questions about its release.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hiya Krusty,

It's been a long time since I last took part in these discussions. Anyway, I've been reading through this thread (and some of the others). I have a few questions - and one request

At your website, you explain the your recent discovery of 2 x CR = +6 EL.

Solution to Problem #2: Encounters levels should be considered relative to average party level. Think of them as a percentage of the party levels power using the following formulae:

Challenge Rating is 1/2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level -3 = Easy
Challenge Rating is 2/3 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate
Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +3 = Tough
Challenge Rating is x1.5 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +6 = Very Tough
Challenge Rating is x2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +9 = Impossible
e.g. Challenge Rating 20 (Balor) is 2/3 Average Party Level for a party of four ECL 30 PCs. Therefore the Balor will be EL -3 (or in this case EL 27).

Eh... wouldn't the balor be a moderate encounter +/-0??

...Now, another minor complication is that, the official rules state that a CR 20 monster is EL 20 AND a 20th-level NPC is also EL 20. With this new system (and assuming a 20th-level PC party) the 20th-level NPC would only be EL 18 (two less because of the conversion between ECL and CR). This means four such 20th-level PCs would only EL 22.

I need some explaing of this.
The way I read you explanation on the website, the 20th lvl NPC is ECL18 because of wealth, right? That would make him CR 12 (two-thirds of 18)? An easy encounter for a group of 4 20th lvl PC's (which I think NPC's often are, if only given NPC wealth). Or what?

Where does the EL 18 come from? Do you mean ECL 18?

Therefore EL 22 (in this case) must be EL +4 above the party average. Which means that a single monster of a CR equal to the party average will represent a tough encounter rather than simply a moderate one.

I need some guidance through this.... I simply don't get it


And now a request. When you finish v.6 could you please post your notes regarding monster CR and class abilities on this board or the website? It would be incredibly helpful to have them to estimate the CR adjustment of abilities from other monster books, or classes from the splate books.
Since you're only just wrapping v.6 up, they should be more or less ready for upload It really doesn't matter if they're a mess - I'm sure many of us would appreciate them anyway!

Thank you.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Krusty,

Hey Sorcica matey!

It's been a long time since I last took part in these discussions.

Nice to hear from you again, I hope you are keeping well?

Anyway, I've been reading through this thread (and some of the others). I have a few questions - and one request

Fire away!

At your website, you explain the your recent discovery of 2 x CR = +6 EL.

Indeed.

Eh... wouldn't the balor be a moderate encounter +/-0??

Okay, firstly remember that I had to update the article on the website after I made the CR discovery.

I need some explaing of this.

Thats what v6 is for.

The way I read you explanation on the website, the 20th lvl NPC is ECL18 because of wealth, right? That would make him CR 12 (two-thirds of 18)? An easy encounter for a group of 4 20th lvl PC's (which I think NPC's often are, if only given NPC wealth). Or what?

Where does the EL 18 come from? Do you mean ECL 18?

I need some guidance through this.... I simply don't get it

One of the challenges of v6 (no pun intended) is going to be getting rid of the confusion surrounding the system. Some of this stuff is so duplicitous that it even confuses me! The fact that WotC have NPC CR = ECL whereas monster CR = 2/3 ECL totally messes things up so badly that its a complete nightmare to try and explain it all. Throw in the fact that a moderate encounter is really an easy encounter and you find yourself in a mathematical quagmire.

Hopefully I'll have it all sorted out satisfactorily in v6...at least thats the plan.

And now a request. When you finish v.6 could you please post your notes regarding monster CR and class abilities on this board or the website? It would be incredibly helpful to have them to estimate the CR adjustment of abilities from other monster books, or classes from the splate books.

Since you're only just wrapping v.6 up, they should be more or less ready for upload It really doesn't matter if they're a mess - I'm sure many of us would appreciate them anyway!

I'm not totally sure what you mean here? I intend to include all my working out of the core classes in v6 this time. Is that what you mean? The individual breakdown of every specific class feature and ability?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'm not totally sure what you mean here? I intend to include all my working out of the core classes in v6 this time. Is that what you mean? The individual breakdown of every specific class feature and ability?

Yep, that's what I mean.

A lot of materiel has been released by WotC since v3, v4 and v5. A lot of monsters and a lot of new core classes. A lot of the new monsters have abilities it would be nice to have CR values for. Now, I know we can't reasonbly ask you go through the various monsters outside of the SRD, but having some monsters detailed in their CR components might give a little help in estimating CRs for new monsters ourselves.
Don't know if this makes any sense. Guess I really just am asking you to list CR values of monster abilities outside the SRD

But, is it possible you could write the CR adjustment of "brain extract" for example, which would be useful (also for using in estimating other death in X rounds abilities) and shouldn't get you into any trouble?

I'm really looking forward to v6. So c'mon - tease us with a release date all of us know has no hold in reality, but stems from fevered dreams caused by blasphemous studies of Things Man Was Not Meant To Know...

 

[Racinante]

Greetings UK,
Any chance you will add Psions and Psychic Warriors (ok, Soulknives and Wilders too) to v6? I'm especially interested in the Integrated Spell (Manifester) Levels for the classes under design parameters.

Thanks much!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greetings UK,

Hey there Racinante!

Any chance you will add Psions and Psychic Warriors (ok, Soulknives and Wilders too) to v6? I'm especially interested in the Integrated Spell (Manifester) Levels for the classes under design parameters.

Thanks much!

I will add the Psion and Psychic Warriors, I don't plan on doing Prestige Classes although maybe as a future web article (post v6 naturally).

The only problem with that idea is I only have the original 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Were there major changes to either or both classes in Psionics 3.5 or Complete Psionic?

 

[Racinante]

Hey there Racinante!
I will add the Psion and Psychic Warriors, I don't plan on doing Prestige Classes although maybe as a future web article (post v6 naturally).

The only problem with that idea is I only have the original 3.0 Psionics Handbook. Were there major changes to either or both classes in Psionics 3.5 or Complete Psionic?

Soulknives and Wilders are base classes (PrCs didn't occur to me). Significant changes were made, but its all in the SRD , so no need to buy 3.5 XPH.

I wouldn't worry too much about CP as it didn't change the core information much (some errata was added to some of the powers from the XPH).

 

[dante58701]

Course Im sure there is some open source content online detailing psionic PRCs. WOTC posted a bit in THE MINDS EYE articles they did a while back. If ur looking for PRCs at all.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Racinante!

Soulknives and Wilders are base classes (PrCs didn't occur to me). Significant changes were made, but its all in the SRD , so no need to buy 3.5 XPH.

I wouldn't worry too much about CP as it didn't change the core information much (some errata was added to some of the powers from the XPH).

Thanks very much, I wasn't sure if the latest stuff was in the SRD yet or not. Since Soulknives and Wilders are classes and in the SRD I'll be happy to include them.

Hey dante mate!

Course Im sure there is some open source content online detailing psionic PRCs. WOTC posted a bit in THE MINDS EYE articles they did a while back. If ur looking for PRCs at all.

Well the point was that I don't want to include Prestige Class breakdowns in version 6 because they are just a complete bottomless pit! That said I may include those from the DMG, but no more than that.

If people really wanted breakdowns for certain Prestige Classes I suppose it could easily be done as a website article.