Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Kerrick]

Ah, more questions.

I was looking over the natural armor guidelines for monsters, and I noticed that you also say that fey, outsiders, and (intelligent) undead should get deflection bonuses. Is this for ALL members of those types? Fey I could see, and some outsiders, but not undead unless they're incorporeal.

Also, do you have a recommended guideline for total AC vs. CR? I'm working on something, and having a rule like that would be really helpful.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Kerrick mate!

Ah, more questions.

Fire away.

I was looking over the natural armor guidelines for monsters, and I noticed that you also say that fey, outsiders, and (intelligent) undead should get deflection bonuses. Is this for ALL members of those types? Fey I could see, and some outsiders, but not undead unless they're incorporeal.

Interesting question. I'd probably agree. Just apply the bonus to incorporeal undead.

Also, do you have a recommended guideline for total AC vs. CR? I'm working on something, and having a rule like that would be really helpful.

I do have one somewhere, but its honestly lost in the deluge, so I would say my chances of working it out again are more likely than my chances of finding the appropriate pages.

I think it may have been 10 + 1 per level (up to ECL 30) then +0.66 after that.

So CR would be 10 + 1.5 per CR (up to 20) + 1 after 20.

 

[Kerrick]

Interesting question. I'd probably agree. Just apply the bonus to incorporeal undead.

Okay.

I do have one somewhere, but its honestly lost in the deluge, so I would say my chances of working it out again are more likely than my chances of finding the appropriate pages.

I think it may have been 10 + 1 per level (up to ECL 30) then +0.66 after that.

So CR would be 10 + 1.5 per CR (up to 20) + 1 after 20.

Okay. I asked a friend who DMs a lot the same question, and he said he uses a similar guideline - CR + 10.

So, for example, a balor (CR 27) would be around AC 47? That seems a little high...

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Okay.


Okay. I asked a friend who DMs a lot the same question, and he said he uses a similar guideline - CR + 10.

So, for example, a balor (CR 27) would be around AC 47? That seems a little high...

Well, I am pretty certain even 47 AC can be hit at level 20.

Consider, for AC, all of the things PCs get that add to their bonus to hit:
BAB: 1/1 BAB goes a long way
Stats: Either Dex or Strength come from Stat ups (~+1 to hit every 8 levels, if thats all that matters to the character)
Item Stat Boost: +1/2 levels (or really 1/3 for non-epic or non focused)
Weapon bonus: +1 per ~ 5 levels. (with about an equal amount of other powers) (Actually, total plus level/2.8~, half for plus, but really)
Feats: +1 to hit could be as often as +1/3 levels. These can really vary.

If you truly want a math equation to take all this into account:
Y = X + (X/8) + (X/3) + (X/2.8/2) + 10 - Should give AC (Y) appropriate for a full-bab fightertype of level (X) to hit on a 10. (Not taking into account feats, so adjusting that +10 at the end might help if you want true accuracy; Also assumes a fairly melee focused build)

So, a fighter-type at level 20, with a +3 Sword of whatever should have at LEAST +33 before feats/Inherit bonuses/class features. Heck, a level 20 fighter with a +5 Sword, 34 Strength, +5 to hit from various feats, class features, spell effects, party synergy benefits like bardic music, etc has +42, hitting the balor on a 5.

 

[Kerrick]

Well, I am pretty certain even 47 AC can be hit at level 20.

Yeah, I know a L27 could hit AC 47 - I started to type it out last night in my post, then deleted it.

If you truly want a math equation to take all this into account:
Y = X + (X/8) + (X/3) + (X/2.8/2) + 10 - Should give AC (Y) appropriate for a full-bab fightertype of level (X) to hit on a 10. (Not taking into account feats, so adjusting that +10 at the end might help if you want true accuracy; Also assumes a fairly melee focused build)

Sweet. That will work great. I'm trying to figure out if I can do an alternate BAB/save progression.

So, a fighter-type at level 20, with a +3 Sword of whatever should have at LEAST +33 before feats/Inherit bonuses/class features. Heck, a level 20 fighter with a +5 Sword, 34 Strength, +5 to hit from various feats, class features, spell effects, party synergy benefits like bardic music, etc has +42, hitting the balor on a 5.

Not sure how you could get 34 Str at 20th level, but I'll take your word for it. I figured the L27 could hit the balor on an 11 (or so; I don't recall exactly), but I was just applying Str, weapon, and Weapon Focus.

My main concern is, this seems to violate his guidelines. A balor is 10, -1 Size, +8 Dex, +13-14 natural armor = AC 30-31. If we tack on the +8 deflection, that'd be 38-39. 1.5/CR up to 20 gives us 30, and +1 after that is another +7 = 37 (close enough if you drop the Dex a bit). This ignores the initial +10, though, and he said to drop the deflection bonus too. But... it looks like that balor could use a little something extra, or the L27 fighter will tear him apart. A profane bonus sounds better, IMO - use that in place of deflection, and he'd have his 38 AC back. You could also apply a sacred bonus to angels/archons to account for the drop in their NA.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Okay.

Okay. I asked a friend who DMs a lot the same question, and he said he uses a similar guideline - CR + 10.

So, for example, a balor (CR 27) would be around AC 47? That seems a little high...

Of course it seems high.

A Balor is CR 18 (ECL 27), not CR 27.

So (under my auspices) you would be aiming for about AC 37 for a Balor. The official stats have it pegged at AC 35.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Yeah, I know a L27 could hit AC 47 - I started to type it out last night in my post, then deleted it.


Sweet. That will work great. I'm trying to figure out if I can do an alternate BAB/save progression.


Not sure how you could get 34 Str at 20th level, but I'll take your word for it. I figured the L27 could hit the balor on an 11 (or so; I don't recall exactly), but I was just applying Str, weapon, and Weapon Focus.

My main concern is, this seems to violate his guidelines. A balor is 10, -1 Size, +8 Dex, +13-14 natural armor = AC 30-31. If we tack on the +8 deflection, that'd be 38-39. 1.5/CR up to 20 gives us 30, and +1 after that is another +7 = 37 (close enough if you drop the Dex a bit). This ignores the initial +10, though, and he said to drop the deflection bonus too. But... it looks like that balor could use a little something extra, or the L27 fighter will tear him apart. A profane bonus sounds better, IMO - use that in place of deflection, and he'd have his 38 AC back. You could also apply a sacred bonus to angels/archons to account for the drop in their NA.

34 Strength: 18 base, +5 from stat-ups, +5 Inherit, +6 Stat-boost item. Can get 36 if your race gets +2.
Also, keep in mind the MM1 was written at the beginning of 3.5, before the power creep. Compare any MM1 monster of CR X to any MM5 monster of CR X and the MM5 monster will likely be hideously more powerful.
Balors can summon other demons, which is handy against the level 20 guys (A Marilith can soak up a 20th level fighter for a round or so).
If you want to rework the equation to allow the 3/4 BaB people a chance to hit the monster, you can, But keep in mind, due to 3E non-linear scaling, that eventually you will reach a game level where if the Non-Combat oriented guy can hit, the fighter hits on a 2, and if the fighter has even a chance of missing, the other characters cannot hit. This is because in standard Epic, everything (BAB, Saves, Etc) scales at +1/2 Levels rate, but the fighter is most likely to continue to pile on bonuses to hit. (From feats, Divine Abilities, Spells, Prestige Class benefits, etc) It is totally possible to reach a situation where the fighter-type has +20 more to hit then anyone else.
Now, melee combat isn't everything; All the natural armor in the world won't protect you against a touch attack. But its probably the easiest thing to eyeball, which you still probably need to do even if you have a magic equation. (Because no equation can predict player choices, so while a nice formula might give you a good basis, it won't fit every group or player)

 

[Kerrick]

Of course it seems high.

A Balor is CR 18 (ECL 27), not CR 27.

So (under my auspices) you would be aiming for about AC 37 for a Balor. The official stats have it pegged at AC 35.

Oopsie. That makes a bit more sense. We're still missing 6-7 points, though (it's AC 30-31 with the recommended NA rule)... what do you suggest?

34 Strength: 18 base, +5 from stat-ups, +5 Inherit, +6 Stat-boost item. Can get 36 if your race gets +2.

Stat-ups? You mean spells? I don't know many that add non-enhancement bonuses to stats.

If you want to rework the equation to allow the 3/4 BaB people a chance to hit the monster, you can, But keep in mind, due to 3E non-linear scaling, that eventually you will reach a game level where if the Non-Combat oriented guy can hit, the fighter hits on a 2, and if the fighter has even a chance of missing, the other characters cannot hit. This is because in standard Epic, everything (BAB, Saves, Etc) scales at +1/2 Levels rate, but the fighter is most likely to continue to pile on bonuses to hit. (From feats, Divine Abilities, Spells, Prestige Class benefits, etc) It is totally possible to reach a situation where the fighter-type has +20 more to hit then anyone else.

Yeah... but I want to lower the BAB progression to start with, to account for those bonuses. Basically, I want to be able to continue the progression into epic without the goofy EAB crap, and possibly reduce the number of attacks along the way, while still giving the medium BAB guys a chance in combat. Low BABs shouldn't get involved in melee combat - they use touch and ranged touch attacks, and creatures' touch ACs are generally very low.

It's pretty well accepted that a) if anyone besides the fighter has a chance of hitting it at all, the fighter will probably hit it every time; and b) if the fighter can't hit it with anything beyond his 2nd (or maybe even 1st) attack, no one else stands a chance without extraordinary luck (again, we're ignoring touch attacks here). I think that if I lower the high AB progression and maybe boost the other two slightly, it would even things out a bit. Now that I have UK's and your formulae, I can do some calculations and see if it's actually a workable idea.

(Because no equation can predict player choices, so while a nice formula might give you a good basis, it won't fit every group or player)

Right. If I can make basic assumptions that apply in the majority of situations, it should work for the majority of PCs and groups (i.e., those that aren't min-maxed).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Oopsie. That makes a bit more sense. We're still missing 6-7 points, though (it's AC 30-31 with the recommended NA rule)... what do you suggest?

3.5 Balor AC

10... -1 size, +7 Dex, +12* NA, +8 Deflection = AC 36

I think the Balor would get +10 for tough leathery skin and +2 from its size.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

...
Stat-ups? You mean spells? I don't know many that add non-enhancement bonuses to stats.
...

The increase in stats a PC (or npc/monster) gain for every 4 Hit dice. (First appears PHB pg 10; progression continues ad-infinitum in epic, ELH pg 7)