Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[Kerrick]

Yes, but my point is, while it parallels PC level, it isn't the same thing.

A level is a level. I seem to recall (and I don't think there's a direct quote here) during a discussion about ECL and LA, that they're trying to equate monster power more closely with PC power, so that you can have monsters with class levels, or PCs with monster HD (a gnoll ranger, or a drow assassin) without the ECL. I could be misremembering this, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Illogical. Healing and greater use of Per Encounter abilities would be taken into account when determining PC Level Power. It wouldn't be a 50/50 encounter if PCs have so much healing capacity. You can't say Monster and PC Level are the same thing and then tack on a load of additional PC powers and abilities, because that will up PC power level.

That's why you throw tougher monsters at them.

If Book of 9 Swords is any indication, PCs may very well have an ability to heal themselves, or use some other ability, as much as they want (but perhaps with limits). 3E for the large part doesn't have that (with exception to some of the more recent books).

Yeah, from what they're saying, everyone has some ability to heal (themselves and/or others). I think they want to make it so that the party CAN go from encounter to encounter without worrying about resources or the lack thereof - they can have several meaningful, cinematic, and tough combats per day and still get to hit the tavern at the end of the day with their buddies, down a few ales, and brag about their exploits.

What we don't really know, though, is how much an encounter is expected to tax the PCs, or how they're balancing encounters. You know, someone should just come out and ask them - I'm sure they'll give us some sort of answer, depending on what's asked.

 

[dante58701]

I definitely don't like the jack of all trades theme for all classes. It completely negates the need for other classes. Why bother with a cleric when you can heal yourself. Why bother with a mage when you can blast people with energy attacks.

4th Edition is sound less and less like something I'd waste my time on. I saw their preview books. Yeah, lame...charging people for a stupid brochure that doesn't tell you very much about anything in the actual game. They shouldn't even be charging people for that.

I haven't seen an edition this lame since Windows Vista.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick mate!

A level is a level.

Not if Monster Level = x and PC Level = 2x.

I seem to recall (and I don't think there's a direct quote here) during a discussion about ECL and LA, that they're trying to equate monster power more closely with PC power, so that you can have monsters with class levels, or PCs with monster HD (a gnoll ranger, or a drow assassin) without the ECL. I could be misremembering this, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

The simplest solution would be to make those with class levels 'Elite' and those without 'Standard'.

I did note that in the podcast when they put together challenges for the PCs using monsters the classed monsters counted as Elite (assuming my previous maths is correct?).

That's why you throw tougher monsters at them.

Again, illogical.

Heres an example. Lets say the PCs go into Dungeon X and have four encounters that day. Each encounter is with evil duplicates of the party members. Each encounter is 50/50. Your groups chances of survival are (approx.) 6.25%.

Lets say you have ten encounters in a given adventure, all with monsters as powerful as the PCs. Your chances are less than 0.01% of survival.

Now the point has been raised that 4E PCs can heal themselves more often. But clearly that won't help when fighting NPCs, because they can heal too.

Yeah, from what they're saying, everyone has some ability to heal (themselves and/or others). I think they want to make it so that the party CAN go from encounter to encounter without worrying about resources or the lack thereof - they can have several meaningful, cinematic, and tough combats per day and still get to hit the tavern at the end of the day with their buddies, down a few ales, and brag about their exploits.

That just means they can have multiple toughencounters. Whereas in 3E they couldn't all be tough because your resources were really important to how powerful you were (particularly with regards spellcasters).

What we don't really know, though, is how much an encounter is expected to tax the PCs, or how they're balancing encounters. You know, someone should just come out and ask them - I'm sure they'll give us some sort of answer, depending on what's asked.

It all seems fairly straightforward to me.

Elite monsters = PCs
Standard Monsters = Half a PC

Ergo balancing encounters with 1 standard monster per PC should yield a 75/25 split in favour of the PCs making encounters tough but still possible with some regularity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante dude!

I definitely don't like the jack of all trades theme for all classes. It completely negates the need for other classes.

Incorrect. It negates the dependancy. Theres a difference.

Why bother with a cleric when you can heal yourself. Why bother with a mage when you can blast people with energy attacks.

The cleric is better at healing than other classes, the wizard is better at energy attacks than other classes, the fighter is better at fighting than other classes.

If I want to play someone who is a great fighter I'll play a Fighter, if I want to play as a great healer etc.

4th Edition is sound less and less like something I'd waste my time on.

Maybe you are not thinking things through.

I saw their preview books. Yeah, lame...charging people for a stupid brochure that doesn't tell you very much about anything in the actual game. They shouldn't even be charging people for that.

If you don't want it...don't buy it.

I haven't seen an edition this lame since Windows Vista.

Enough with the soundbites.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey hey, UK.

It all seems fairly straightforward to me.

Elite monsters = PCs
Standard Monsters = Half a PC

I think maybe you are mistaken... from what I've gathered (with two 'elite' bulettes challenging a 4-person party), the following is closer to home:

Elite Monsters = 2 PCs
Standard Monsters = 1 PC
Minions = 1/2 PC (?)

 

[Kerrick]

Heres an example. Lets say the PCs go into Dungeon X and have four encounters that day. Each encounter is with evil duplicates of the party members. Each encounter is 50/50. Your groups chances of survival are (approx.) 6.25%.

Lets say you have ten encounters in a given adventure, all with monsters as powerful as the PCs. Your chances are less than 0.01% of survival.

Now the point has been raised that 4E PCs can heal themselves more often. But clearly that won't help when fighting NPCs, because they can heal too.

NPCs, yes - monsters, no. I'm not following how it's harder to fight a bunch of monsters of equal power level than it is to fight a bunch of NPCs of equal power level, given that the NPCs can heal themselves and the monsters can't.

Not if Monster Level = x and PC Level = 2x.

You know, sometimes I think you deliberately misunderstand my point. "Level" is an absolute term - it means the same thing for monsters, NPCs, and PCs: A unit used to measure power. "Power" is a variable - it means: "How much strength a monster, NPC, or PC has, and how long it can last in battle." Now, since we're basing everything off PC power units, a L10 standard monster (by your system) has only 5 power units. But it's still 10th level.

I think maybe you are mistaken... from what I've gathered (with two 'elite' bulettes challenging a 4-person party), the following is closer to home:

Yeah.. I mean, if you think about it, five elites against a party of 5 PCs would wipe the floor with them. Making PCs twice as powerful as normal monsters is just absurd.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK.

Hiya mate!

I think maybe you are mistaken... from what I've gathered (with two 'elite' bulettes challenging a 4-person party), the following is closer to home:

Elite Monsters = 2 PCs
Standard Monsters = 1 PC
Minions = 1/2 PC (?)

Challenging does not mean equal, if it meant equal then WotC would be setting up every encounter to be a 50/50 chance. That means every encounter your PCs would have a 50% chance of defeat.

1 encounter = 50% chance
2 = 25% chance
3 = 12.5% chance
4 = 6.25% chance
10 = 0.09% chance
etc.

That means you would have a 0.09% chance of ever making it to level 2.

Ergo PC Level and Monster Level do not (and cannot) mean the same thing.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

NPCs, yes - monsters, no.

They use the same rules. NPCs are elites.

I'm not following how it's harder to fight a bunch of monsters of equal power level than it is to fight a bunch of NPCs of equal power level, given that the NPCs can heal themselves and the monsters can't.

If a monster has 10 levels of power and a PC has 10 levels of power (so they are effectively equal in combat) then you add 5 levels worth of healing power to the PC, that PC is effectively 15th-level, not 10th-level. Therefore there would be a disparity of power.

You know, sometimes I think you deliberately misunderstand my point. "Level" is an absolute term - it means the same thing for monsters, NPCs, and PCs: A unit used to measure power.

Not in 4th Edition it doesn't.

In fact IT CANNOT!!!

Otherwise how can we have Level 10 Minions, Level 10 standard monsters, Level 10 elites and level 10 solo monsters. Unless you are suggesting a Level 10 minion is equal to a level 10 solo monster!?!?

"Power" is a variable - it means: "How much strength a monster, NPC, or PC has, and how long it can last in battle." Now, since we're basing everything off PC power units, a L10 standard monster (by your system) has only 5 power units. But it's still 10th level.

Its a challenge for a 10th-level PC.

Challenge does not mean equal!!!

Challenge CANNOT mean equal!!!

Yeah.. I mean, if you think about it, five elites against a party of 5 PCs would wipe the floor with them.

It would be a 50/50 fight.

Making PCs twice as powerful as normal monsters is just absurd.

Unless of course we are trying to make monster level represent a tough challenge to PCs of that level, NOT a 50/50 fight by making them equal to a PC of that level.

 

[Kerrick]

I was bored the other night and popped over to your site to see what was new, and I stumbled across the revised ECL rules. I have a few questions...

It says that "An ECL 30 Balor is CR 20, while an ECL 20 NPC would be CR 13." Does this apply to PCs too?

With this new system (and assuming a 20th-level PC party) the 20th-level NPC would only be EL 18 (two less because of the conversion between ECL and CR).

How does this work now? Is there a revised table like in v4 of the CR rules where we can see the whole thing laid out? I don't completely understand the equivalence between CR, ECL, and EL.

 

[S'mon]

Hi Kerrick mate - this is Upper, I'm on holiday in London and using a friends computer.

I was bored the other night and popped over to your site to see what was new, and I stumbled across the revised ECL rules. I have a few questions...

It says that "An ECL 30 Balor is CR 20, while an ECL 20 NPC would be CR 13." Does this apply to PCs too?

How does this work now? Is there a revised table like in v4 of the CR rules where we can see the whole thing laid out? I don't completely understand the equivalence between CR, ECL, and EL.

You and me both.

Okay, this stuff is simple, but relatively easy to complicate, but basically ECL is (approx.) 150% of Challenge Rating (in fact has been since v5).

Encounter Level is the same thing as challenge Rating but can be used to calculate groups of opponents.

eg. A single monster will have its CR = EL (if encountered alone). Whereas a group of monsters will have a different EL from their individual CRs.

Technically a 4th Edition model would be the easiest way of sorting it all out. ie. Use one monster of the same ECL to the PCs level (or ECL if they have templates) for every PC.

However, you still face the usual 3E complications of martial classes being far weaker that spell-caster classes. Then you have min/maxing and power gamers to sort out.

Also I think my CR/ECLs were built more in line with the martial classes (Although this is solved in version 6).

So if you have 4 PCs of level 30, then they are almost certainly better than 4 Balors (ECL 30 each). The way round this is to divide the final ECL by 6 and multiply by 5 (5/6ths). Rather than apply the old Silver Rule (5/6ths below ECL 20 or -3 after ECL 20).

So technically one Balor is more akin to one 27th-level (non-min/maxed) PC.