Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[dante58701]

LeShay challenge rating...what should it be if converted to the epic bestiary?

 

[Kerrick]

From what I have read (and a bit of reading between the lines)

1 solo monster = tough encounter for 4 (or is it 5?) PCs of the same level
1 elite monster = tough encounter for 2 PCs of the same level
1 monster = tough encounter for 1 PC of the same level
4 minions* = tough ecounter for 1 PC of the same level

*In one of the earlier previews they stated that 20 goblin minions would be a good encounter for 5 PCs of the same level. So we can assume four minions are set up for every PC.

It is the difference between a tough encounter and a difficult (50/50) encounter that leads me to believe that 4E PCs are roughly equal to one elite monster of the same level.

I've been looking back over this, and I have to wonder: what are you defining as a "tough" encounter? In most people's dictionaries, "tough" and "difficult" mean more or less the same thing, so you differentiating between them makes for a bit of confusion.

Assuming that 5 PCs are a "standard party", we can also assume that a single bulette (an elite) is equal to 5 PCs - it slightly overmatches 4, but not enough to make it a really hard encounter. Two of them, however, would "give them a run for their money" - it would be roughly 1.5 times the party's power level (assuming that a second bulette adds only a fraction of power to the first, not doubles it outright).

Wow... I can't believe I said that 1 bulette is equal to 4 PCs - I apparently wasn't paying attention to pssthpok's post, and evidence from the devs - 2 PCs = 1 elite. So two elite bulettes would give a party of 4 PCs "a run for their money". Now, the question is: are they really basing these measurements off a 5-person party like they're saying, or going with a 4-person party? If it's the former, then I think the comparison would be more along the lines of 2.5 PCs = 1 elite. Two elite bulettes would then, like I said, slightly overmatch a 4-person party (by about 1.25 to 1). If it's the latter, well... it certainly makes it easier to calculate things, but it would skew everyone else if they were trying to use the 5-person party to calculate power levels.

The reason that works (but doesn't validate your argument) is because monster level and PC level are not the same thing in 4E (something that has been outlined in the previews).

Where's the quote? I went through all the information on the 4E page, and I didn't find this.
And what is a "typical" encounter? You keep saying this, but you haven't actually shown us what you think a standard encounter is. I'm not trying to be adversarial here, I'm actually wondering - like I said, you use "tough" to mean less than "difficult" and I'm not seeing the difference.

So a 5th-level monster is not as powerful as a 5th-level PC. Monster level is now purely used to determine at what level one such monster is a typical opponent for a PC of that level.

I did some number-crunching, and I think I know the equivalencies now. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that 1 monster = 0.9 PCs (that is, a monster is 90% as powerful as a PC of equal level - hey, we agree on something!). Now, since power levels are based on a 5-person party, an elite is actually 2.5 times as powerful as a normal monster, and a solo 5 times as powerful. A minion would be roughly equal to 1/5 of a PC. I added in the "henchman" monster, because there seems to be too large a gap between normal and minion. That would mean:

1 minion monster = .22 PC (1/5-1/4)
1 "henchman" monster = 0.45 PC (1/2)
1 normal monster = 0.9 PC (1)
1 elite monster = 2.25 PC (2)
1 solo monster = 4.5 PCs (4-5)

This is very close to what we've been seeing in the previews (and what the devs have been intimating), and dovetails with what James was saying: the PCs "get up in the morning and have a fun encounter: there are multiple monsters that are close to the PCs' level, so the total encounter level is higher than their level." 20 goblins vs. 5 PCs? Higher encounter level (1.3:1). 2 elite bulettes vs. 4 PCs? Higher encounter level (1.25:1). I don't think they're designing encounters to be like 3E - one after another after another. Encounters in 4E will be more exciting, more cinematic, and more "do or die". I think they'll be designed so there will be one or maybe two big battles like this before the PCs can go home or back to camp or whatever and rest up.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy dante mate - merry christmas dude!

LeShay challenge rating...what should it be if converted to the epic bestiary?

I have it down as CR 31 in version 6 if thats any help.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick matey!

Merry Christmas!

I've been looking back over this, and I have to wonder: what are you defining as a "tough" encounter? In most people's dictionaries, "tough" and "difficult" mean more or less the same thing, so you differentiating between them makes for a bit of confusion.

Difficult as in a solid chance of losing, a 50/50 chance.

Tough as in challenging, but unlikely they will lose (unless extreme dice rolled or the PCs are stupid). While the math paints a tough encounter as a 75/25 chance in favour of the PCs thats slightly misleading because encounters are resolved over multiple rounds, so if one PC 'goes down' the others can adapt their tactics to fall back/escape etc.

Wow... I can't believe I said that 1 bulette is equal to 4 PCs - I apparently wasn't paying attention to pssthpok's post, and evidence from the devs - 2 PCs = 1 elite.

1 Elite = a good encounter for 2 PCs.

So two elite bulettes would give a party of 4 PCs "a run for their money".

As in they would challenge them, perhaps defeating them 1 in every 4 attempts if the PCs were silly enough to fight to the death if things start to go badly.

Now, the question is: are they really basing these measurements off a 5-person party like they're saying, or going with a 4-person party?

It doesn't matter with 4E, thats the beauty of its design. Monsters are now relative to individuals (standard and minions), pairs (elites) and groups (solo monsters).

The example you quoted was for a four person PC party, but the standard is for five. None of which changes any of the dynamics.

If it's the former, then I think the comparison would be more along the lines of 2.5 PCs = 1 elite. Two elite bulettes would then, like I said, slightly overmatch a 4-person party (by about 1.25 to 1).

I don't think its that complicated.

If it's the latter, well... it certainly makes it easier to calculate things, but it would skew everyone else if they were trying to use the 5-person party to calculate power levels.

It doesn't skew anything because you don't calculate power levels in 4E, you just pick monsters of a given level that tally up to the number of PCs in your party.

8 PCs, use 8 standard monsters, or 32 minions, or 4 elites, or 2 solos (or any combination thereof) etc.

Where's the quote? I went through all the information on the 4E page, and I didn't find this.

Thats weird, it may have been in the 4E podcast. But I definately heard it somewhere.

And what is a "typical" encounter? You keep saying this, but you haven't actually shown us what you think a standard encounter is. I'm not trying to be adversarial here, I'm actually wondering - like I said, you use "tough" to mean less than "difficult" and I'm not seeing the difference.

See above.

I did some number-crunching, and I think I know the equivalencies now. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that 1 monster = 0.9 PCs (that is, a monster is 90% as powerful as a PC of equal level - hey, we agree on something!). Now, since power levels are based on a 5-person party, an elite is actually 2.5 times as powerful as a normal monster, and a solo 5 times as powerful. A minion would be roughly equal to 1/5 of a PC. I added in the "henchman" monster, because there seems to be too large a gap between normal and minion. That would mean:

1 minion monster = .22 PC (1/5-1/4)
1 "henchman" monster = 0.45 PC (1/2)
1 normal monster = 0.9 PC (1)
1 elite monster = 2.25 PC (2)
1 solo monster = 4.5 PCs (4-5)

I think you are way over complicating things.

This is very close to what we've been seeing in the previews (and what the devs have been intimating), and dovetails with what James was saying: the PCs "get up in the morning and have a fun encounter: there are multiple monsters that are close to the PCs' level, so the total encounter level is higher than their level." 20 goblins vs. 5 PCs? Higher encounter level (1.3:1). 2 elite bulettes vs. 4 PCs? Higher encounter level (1.25:1). I don't think they're designing encounters to be like 3E - one after another after another. Encounters in 4E will be more exciting, more cinematic, and more "do or die". I think they'll be designed so there will be one or maybe two big battles like this before the PCs can go home or back to camp or whatever and rest up.

The only 'fraction' is going to be the Minion to PC relationship, all these other decimal points you are making are unnecessary.

 

[dante58701]

Howdy dante mate - merry christmas dude!



I have it down as CR 31 in version 6 if thats any help.

Merry Christmas!!!

Thanks for that, are you planning any Christmas type specials?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Merry Christmas!!!

You too my friend!

Thanks for that, are you planning any Christmas type specials?

Yes its the one where I get a day of rest...now thats special.

I am not organised enough yet to do things of that nature unfortunately.

 

[Kerrick]

It doesn't skew anything because you don't calculate power levels in 4E, you just pick monsters of a given level that tally up to the number of PCs in your party.

Yes, level - a measure of determining power.

Tough as in challenging, but unlikely they will lose (unless extreme dice rolled or the PCs are stupid). While the math paints a tough encounter as a 75/25 chance in favour of the PCs thats slightly misleading because encounters are resolved over multiple rounds, so if one PC 'goes down' the others can adapt their tactics to fall back/escape etc.

I was thinking about this a bit, and I realized something - resources aren't the same in 4E as they are in 3E. Specifically, they're largely rechargeable. Using up 25% of your resources is going to be very hard to do in 4E with per-round and per-encounter abilities abounding, and healing is far more prevalent, meaning that PCs can handle greater challenges (like the 50/50 encounter that James was talking about) both singly (1/day) and repeatedly (multiple encounters in the same day). I think when they say 1 normal monster = 1 PC, they mean 1 normal monster = 1 PC. There's no difference in power level here - they are the same.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Kerrick dude!

Yes, level - a measure of determining power.

Yes, but my point is, while it parallels PC level, it isn't the same thing.

I was thinking about this a bit, and I realized something - resources aren't the same in 4E as they are in 3E. Specifically, they're largely rechargeable. Using up 25% of your resources is going to be very hard to do in 4E with per-round and per-encounter abilities abounding, and healing is far more prevalent, meaning that PCs can handle greater challenges (like the 50/50 encounter that James was talking about) both singly (1/day) and repeatedly (multiple encounters in the same day). I think when they say 1 normal monster = 1 PC, they mean 1 normal monster = 1 PC. There's no difference in power level here - they are the same.

Illogical. Healing and greater use of Per Encounter abilities would be taken into account when determining PC Level Power. It wouldn't be a 50/50 encounter if PCs have so much healing capacity. You can't say Monster and PC Level are the same thing and then tack on a load of additional PC powers and abilities, because that will up PC power level.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Actually, this is sort of an interesting point; With many PC resources being per encounter rather than per day, encounter dynamics may be vastly different than in 3E.

If Book of 9 Swords is any indication, PCs may very well have an ability to heal themselves, or use some other ability, as much as they want (but perhaps with limits). 3E for the large part doesn't have that (with exception to some of the more recent books).

An example: Lets say the PCs have powers that allow them to heal themselves a small amount of life as often as they want, but the ability is situational. The amount of healing, for arguments sake, restores about 15%. Lets say this ability can only be used if the PC is at less than half HP. (the 4E term is 'Bloodied', correct?). This means that the PCs who have less than half HP at the end of the fight are still going to end the fight around 50-64% of their life remaining unless they die. This means that an encounter that cannot take away ~50% of the PCs HP is not really a threat, unless it possesses some alternate means of taxing them (Ability damage, curses, yadda yadda) or the dice stray from averages. (which they usually do, but not by too much)

Now, my example was made up on the fly as I don't know any real details about the balance of 4E. But going by that example, and adventure design could be something like 3-4 'weak' encounters, where each takes away 10-15% of the PCs resources, and one 'boss' encounter, capable of taking away 30-50%. This adventure design could work in 3E too, but what about 3-4 'Average' encounters (taking away 25% each) and 1 Boss Encounter? Wont work in 3E well; The PCs will likely die (or stop, leave, and rest, ruining any effort to tax their resources). But in 4E, it has the same difficulty curve; PCs won't have to heal until after the 2nd fight, and can't lose (except to dice flukes) except possibly in the end battle.

(Heck, this model even is a supporting reason for villain stupids - If the villain sends his strong guys out first, and they lose, he can't possibly defeat his foes no matter how many weak ones he's got, but if he sends them out in an ascending order, his chances of winning skyrocket!)

Just my thoughts.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

I seem to recall WotC saying that they wanted to shy away from having 'build-up' encounters and instead make every encounter meaningful, enjoyable and dangerous.

-- "See, in 3e there's a basic assumption that an encounter between four 5th-level PCs and one CR 5 monster should drain away about 25% of the party's resources, which primarily translates into spells (and primarily the cleric's spells, which determine everyone else's total hit points). What that actually means is that you get up the morning, then have three encounters in a row that don't reallly challenge you. It's the fourth one that tests your skill—that's where you figure out whether you've spent too much, or if you still have enough resources left to finish off that last encounter. Then you're done. So basically, three boring encounters before you get to one that's really life or death....It kind of makes sense, mathematically. The problem is, it's not fun. So what lots of people actually do, in my experience, is get up in the morning and have a fun encounter: there are multiple monsters that are close to the PCs' level, so the total encounter level is higher than their level. There's interesting terrain and dynamic movement. Sometimes there are waves of monsters, one after another. Whew! It's a knock-down, drag-out fight that could really go either way. And it's fun!"