Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

[EarthSeraphEdna]

U_K, in v6 of the challenge rating PDF, how much ECL are non-epic feats, epic feats, divine abilities, cosmic abilities, transcendental abilities, and omnific abilities each worth?

Both non-epic and epic feats were worth +0.2 ECL in v5. Since you designed things such that 36 feats equal 6 divine abilities equal 1 cosmic ability, I was wondering if it was as simple as +1.2 ECL for each divine ability, +7.2 ECL for each cosmic ability, etc. However, I've seen it previously mentioned on this forum that each divine ability is +1 ECL and each transcendental or omnific ability instead applies an ECL multiplier...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

U_K, in v6 of the challenge rating PDF, how much ECL are non-epic feats, epic feats, divine abilities, cosmic abilities, transcendental abilities, and omnific abilities each worth?

Both non-epic and epic feats were worth +0.2 ECL in v5. Since you designed things such that 36 feats equal 6 divine abilities equal 1 cosmic ability, I was wondering if it was as simple as +1.2 ECL for each divine ability, +7.2 ECL for each cosmic ability, etc. However, I've seen it previously mentioned on this forum that each divine ability is +1 ECL and each transcendental or omnific ability instead applies an ECL multiplier...

Its 1 divine ability = +1 ECL (6 feats) for v6.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Its 1 divine ability = +1 ECL (6 feats) for v6.

So if 36 feats equal 6 divine abilities equal 1 cosmic ability, wouldn't that make feats (both non-epic and epic) worth +0.167 ECL each, and cosmic abilites worth +6 ECL each? Is that because the "5/6 ECL" Silver Rule has already been pre-factored into everything, or are they still subject to the 5/6 rule at the end?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

So if 36 feats equal 6 divine abilities equal 1 cosmic ability, wouldn't that make feats (both non-epic and epic) worth +0.167 ECL each, and cosmic abilites worth +6 ECL each?

Yes.

Is that because the "5/6 ECL" Silver Rule has already been pre-factored into everything, or are they still subject to the 5/6 rule at the end?

They already have it built in.

 

[Kerrick]

The idea is very simple, monsters of the same level are only half as powerful as the PCs because if they were equally powerful every encounter would be a 50/50 fight and thus your PCs would be dead within a few encounters.

Since elites have been stated to be twice as powerful as a normal monster (see below), that would mean that 1 PC = 1 elite, which is not the case. That would also refute your assertion that 1 PC = 2 normal monsters.

Elite monsters represent a greater challenge: They count as two monsters of their level for encounter building and rewards. Elite monsters have the word “elite” preceding their level and role.

This is the last paragraph from the elite bulette article:

The battle goes on. Even though there are four heroes, it only takes two bulettes to give them a run for their money. Fourth Edition has such elite monsters because you don’t always want a straight one-on-one fight -- sometimes a monster should just be bigger, tougher, and scarier than the norm.

I could be wrong here, but it seems to imply that 1 PC = 1 non-elite monster, not 1 PC = 1 elite.

 

[Pssthpok]

I could be wrong here, but it seems to imply that 1 PC = 1 non-elite monster, not 1 PC = 1 elite.

That's been the clear implication as far as I know.

1 PC = 2 minion monsters (?)
1 PC = 1 monster
1 PC = 1/2 elite monster
1 PC = 1/4 solo monster

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick matey!

Since elites have been stated to be twice as powerful as a normal monster (see below), that would mean that 1 PC = 1 elite, which is not the case. That would also refute your assertion that 1 PC = 2 normal monsters.

It would refute it if you were right and I was wrong.

This is the last paragraph from the elite bulette article:

The battle goes on. Even though there are four heroes, it only takes two bulettes to give them a run for their money. Fourth Edition has such elite monsters because you don’t always want a straight one-on-one fight -- sometimes a monster should just be bigger, tougher, and scarier than the norm.

I could be wrong here, but it seems to imply that 1 PC = 1 non-elite monster, not 1 PC = 1 elite.

I don't think so. Remember what they want is a tough encounter, not a 50/50 (difficult) encounter.

1 monster of level x = a tough encounter for 1 PC of level x

1 elite monster of level x = a tough encounter for 2 PCs of level x

The bulette encounter was for 2 elite monsters of level x and 4 PC's of level x. Therefore it was still only a tough encounter.

4E encounters are set up with tough encounters as standard.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya Pssthpok dude!

That's been the clear implication as far as I know.

1 PC = 2 minion monsters (?)
1 PC = 1 monster
1 PC = 1/2 elite monster
1 PC = 1/4 solo monster

From what I have read (and a bit of reading between the lines)

1 solo monster = tough encounter for 4 (or is it 5?) PCs of the same level
1 elite monster = tough encounter for 2 PCs of the same level
1 monster = tough encounter for 1 PC of the same level
4 minions* = tough ecounter for 1 PC of the same level

*In one of the earlier previews they stated that 20 goblin minions would be a good encounter for 5 PCs of the same level. So we can assume four minions are set up for every PC.

It is the difference between a tough encounter and a difficult (50/50) encounter that leads me to believe that 4E PCs are roughly equal to one elite monster of the same level.

 

[Kerrick]

It would refute it if you were right and I was wrong.

Prepare to be refuted.

This is a quote from the 4E information page (under Encounters):

"In 4th Edition, your dungeons are going to be a lot more densely populated. The typical encounter has one monster per PC in the party, assuming that the monsters are about the same level as the PCs."

James Wyatt says pretty much the same thing, further down:

So what lots of people actually do, in my experience, is get up in the morning and have a fun encounter: there are multiple monsters that are close to the PCs' level, so the total encounter level is higher than their level. There's interesting terrain and dynamic movement. Sometimes there are waves of monsters, one after another. Whew! It's a knock-down, drag-out fight that could really go either way. And it's fun!

So yes, an encounter against monsters of equal level is a 50/50 fight... but that's apparently the standard now.

Now, if we use that and apply it to this:

Even though there are four heroes, it only takes two bulettes to give them a run for their money. Fourth Edition has such elite monsters because you don’t always want a straight one-on-one fight -- sometimes a monster should just be bigger, tougher, and scarier than the norm.

Assuming that 5 PCs are a "standard party", we can also assume that a single bulette (an elite) is equal to 5 PCs - it slightly overmatches 4, but not enough to make it a really hard encounter. Two of them, however, would "give them a run for their money" - it would be roughly 1.5 times the party's power level (assuming that a second bulette adds only a fraction of power to the first, not doubles it outright).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

The typical encounter has one monster per PC in the party, assuming that the monsters are about the same level as the PCs."

The reason that works (but doesn't validate your argument) is because monster level and PC level are not the same thing in 4E (something that has been outlined in the previews). So a 5th-level monster is not as powerful as a 5th-level PC. Monster level is now purely used to determine at what level one such monster is a typical opponent for a PC of that level.

Regardless, simple logic dictates that the monsters and PCs cannot be of equal power for multiple encounters if a "typical" encounter has both sides equally powerful. Your PCs will only win such encounters 50% of the time ergo they won't last long.