Challenging my high-lvl group (NPCs and monsters; my players shouldn't read this!)

[Piratecat]

A great question, and one that remains unanswered. I'd like to think that it's because Gith and Zerthimon (or however the mythology) almost came to blows, and this neutral gith soldier had to choose a side -- and he chose the Githyanki. If he had chosen the Githzerai, all the focal power of that one moment of choice might have resulted in a very different weapon.

I wonder if there's a fun way to make that decision have to happen again, this time with a different result.

 

[Spatzimaus]

So what made this ordinary, unremarkable sword become a focal point?

Maybe it's their Excalibur. As a weapon it has equals, but this was the personal sword of their greatest general, the symbol of his house, and a work of art in its own right. This isn't just limited to weapons; what if, during the Cold War, the Soviets had sent a team to steal the original copies of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence? Sure, they're paper, but it's not only an unacceptable loss of a historical item, it's a loss to your worst enemies.

I like the idea of Gith coming back and solving this, although that'd have a LOT of consequences. If it resulted in the two gith races reuniting under one banner, how long would it be before the illithids were wiped out? And what would that do to our favorite brain paladin? (Heh, the DoD being called in to save the brain and its illithid paladin order from destruction by the reunited gith?)

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Religious convention? That means Soder gets to be there, right? I wouldn't mind coming up with a religious figure or two, do you happen to have a list of your campaign's deities? (I recall some kind of graph with them that was posted a while ago)

 

[Spatzimaus]

do you happen to have a list of your campaign's deities? (I recall some kind of graph with them that was posted a while ago)

It's located here.

IIRC, many of these gods were fleshed out by characters who chose that deity. Galanna, Calphas, Aeos, Vindus and Morphat have all been represented in the party, with Toraz, Teliez, Orthyss, and Yorrine showing up as enemies. So, I'd guess we don't have much room to play with those.

 

[Sandain]

I think a Demi-lich should show up. 'For the souls of 5 epic heroes, to fuel my divine transcendence I can guarantee you will have the power to defeat the worms'

I love Acerak.

 

[Piratecat]

IIRC, many of these gods were fleshed out by characters who chose that deity. Galanna, Calphas, Aeos, Vindus and Morphat have all been represented in the party, with Toraz, Teliez, Orthyss, and Yorrine showing up as enemies. So, I'd guess we don't have much room to play with those.

Welcome to my great weakness as a DM; I suck at world-building things that I don't imminently need. Some DMs detail every God and continent before they begin play. I'm not one of those people. Hell, I don't even know the name of the other continents.

That's why I didn't have a world-creation myth for the first six years of the campaign. I just didn't feel comfortable enough to do it justice. You'll also notice that my deities are complicated by the existence of the traditional D&D humanoid deities like Yondalla, Moradin, and so forth. That's just a carry-over from AD&D, but it's well established at this point even if it messes up my pantheon. We sort of think of them as the "non-local" Gods.

I think a Demi-lich should show up. 'For the souls of 5 epic heroes, to fuel my divine transcendence I can guarantee you will have the power to defeat the worms'

I love Acerak.

Me too, but I envision these eating Acererak for dinner. Heck, Soder is a demi-lich who is also now a divine servant (sort of an undead arch-angel, in an odd sense, with the same power that Acererak was aiming for in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.) He's planning on staying far away from the worms. That's partially due to the fact that (to prevent divine intercession) I've made the worms resistant to divine power. Holy divinations can't detect them, for instance.

I'll give you a quick look at the potential end of the campaign.
[sblock]The worms aren't the real threat. The real threat is that the worms are breeding in a place where no one can easily get to them, and the resulting larvae are going to literally kill the world. If that happens, the heroes are going to have to come up with some interesting plans to bring it back to life. I know how they might do this, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet.

The larvae are going to devour and kill the parent worms. And Velendo is going to learn this about two minutes before he has to go "on-stage" at the big planning meeting.

(Remind me at some point to talk about how I'm trying to put the threat on a more human level, using cultists who aren't around for what you might think.)

The group has just learned that Trea wasn't originally the Goddess of Treachery and Seduction. She was originally the Goddess of Cleverness and Trickery. It was She who actually fooled all but two of the worms into abandoning the mortal plane (and crawling into a giant trap), and doing so corrupted Her irrevocably and drove her insane. That's why She ended up seducing Her father. This would be a... controversial... claim to make in established religion. [/sblock]

Let's talk about the potential convention for a sec.

The goal is to get all the movers and shakers he can find: powerful wizards and priests, warlords, scholars, and the like. The more they invite, the fewer folks will be offended for not being invited, but the more unwieldy it will become. I think i'll have a representative from most of the major churches within the main group.

The real problem here is that 99% of famous scholars and sages, experts on religion, have no idea that the worms exist (or don't believe what they really are if they have heard of them.) This is really obscure lore. It's also completely heretical in most religions.

I'll have to represent this discussion in a fun way, without really having a giant meeting.

 

[Sandain]

To me it would be fun to have the worlds best assasin be represented because of the huge resources and lore the guild has collected over the centuries. He could be an Assasin/perfect wraith type who will attend but not be seen and request that Mara speaks on his behalf

In any conference or meeting there will always be different factions. By various bargaining and power plays the group may end up as the spokepeople for different factions. They may have to play devils advocate against there own beliefs.

 

[Piratecat]

Interestingly enough, one of the world's best assassins did show up three games ago. He's been hired by the church of Toraz, God of Assassins, to stop people from assassinating the Defenders. Although the Defenders hate them, the Torazians are one of the few churches who have an inkling of what the stakes are, and they want to make sure that the Defenders stay perfectly healthy until they can do something about it.

He's getting paid quite a bit, and he's ethical enough that he doesn't like to kill the folks he considers "good guys." It's a good deal for him.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Welcome to my great weakness as a DM; I suck at world-building things that I don't imminently need.

I wouldn't call it a "weakness" at all, even if it is going to give you a headache or three in the near future. I've played with DMs who tried to create the entire world mythology and geography before the campaign starts, and inevitably they railroad the players just so that they can show off the content they spent all that time on. Also, this sort of vagueness fits a narrative style well, since the details off all those other places and gods would be a bit fuzzy to the protagonists due to lack of exposure.

Hell, I don't even know the name of the other continents.

And that's where WE come in! It's ironic; the fact that your campaign is coming to a close is the perfect opportunity to start creating all sorts of extra material, simply because you don't have to worry about the players ever going to those places or interacting with those gods. You can throw in TONS of material "inspired" by other people's campaigns, and it'd only really matter if someone decided to start a new campaign in your world.

(Hint: publish a Spira Sourcebook!)

You'll also notice that my deities are complicated by the existence of the traditional D&D humanoid deities like Yondalla, Moradin, and so forth. That's just a carry-over from AD&D, but it's well established at this point even if it messes up my pantheon. We sort of think of them as the "non-local" Gods.

I was thinking about that, after the previous post, and came to the same conclusion. The logic's simple:
> There are a multitude of Primes.
> Abbath, Aedrae, and Trea came to this one and made it their home. They and their children draw their power from their followers here. While these gods themselves live on aligned planes, many of them are tied to a single Prime where they're much, much stronger.
> But then there are also a few "universal" ones, like Moradin, that don't limit themselves to one Prime. Moradin has followers pretty much anywhere there are Dwarves, which gives him a LOT of power; the flip side is that he can't directly affect things on this Prime nearly as much as someone like Aeos can, and that sort of direct action tends to make converts quickly, which could explain why gods like Aeos have so much local power.

The other option is to treat those non-human deities as simply aspects of the established pantheon; equate Aeos to Moradin, Yondalla to Galanna, etc., but this would cause a LOT of problems.

The goal is to get all the movers and shakers he can find: powerful wizards and priests, warlords, scholars, and the like. The more they invite, the fewer folks will be offended for not being invited, but the more unwieldy it will become.

The real problem here is that 99% of famous scholars and sages, experts on religion, have no idea that the worms exist

Well, the typical Real World solution for that isn't to invite everyone with power, it's to invite a single powerful representative from each category, someone that the rest of his contemporaries accepts as trustworthy. Convince the Aedraean Pope that the worms are real, and let HIM convince the other religions; his chances of being believed are far better than those of an abrasive ex-village priest. Likewise, Ioun has a better chance of convincing mage guilds than a half-insane halfling, and the king of Gaunt could handle politicos better than anyone other than Nolin...

This has the advantage of keeping the discussion small without offending anyone for being left out, although it does tend to make everything take twice as long. The big headache becomes if there are people who'd still be convinced the representative is lying to further his own agenda, but those people would cause you problems either way. One solution there is to invite two or three within each category, making sure they're from conflicting groups. For the religious types, for instance, you'd invite some evil deity's representative (Soder!), under the assumption that any religious types will listen to at least ONE of the people invited, and if both sides can be convinced then it must be true. Likewise, if you invite the king of Gaunt, make sure to invite his traditional rival at the same time.

 

[Piratecat]

That's a great idea, and an obvious compromise between effectiveness and roleplaying. More after I think on this a while.