Changes to Devils and Demons

[AdmundfortGeographer]

So you can see, Erinyes as temptress's with different wings WERE the norm until 3.5. Its also easy to see they DO share a similar position in the game: evil winged hawt woman of doom. And since succubi is a more familiar name, guess which one is being kept in 4e...

Bravo on the research!

 

[Kobold Avenger]

If Erinyes and Succubi do end up being merged into one, which I don't prefer. Then a Succubus should still be a Demon, not matter what. If the Devils get to take the Gelugon/Ice-Devil from the Demons, then the Demons should have something to take from the Devils.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

I started in AD&D with the MM demons & devils and the PHB "Great Wheel".

I eschewed 2e D&D so I never followed any of the Planescape stuff, but I did flip through a friend's MM binder where I saw the ridiculous baatezu/tanar'ri crap. The fact that TSR kowtowed to the fundamentalists fueled my joy when they finally went belly up and sold out to WotC.

For 3e, I decided I didn't care too much for stirct alignments or the Great Wheel, so I made my own cosmology. It appears that WotC's changes for 4e have some parallels to my own origins of demons and devils.


Demons are spirits of primal chaos and evil. They are almost invariably monstrous (humanoid or bestial), following only one rule "might makes right."

Celestials are spirits of primal law and good. They are almost invariably magnificent (humanoid or bestial), and follow a strict hierarchy.

Devils are fallen celestials. A council of nine celestial lords and their cohorts rebelled against the higher powers. Upon their defeat they were cursed and driven from the Seven Heavens. They fled to the Abyss where they wrested a region from the poorly organized demons. This devil-ruled area is known as the Nine Hells.

These kingdoms continually engage in numerous internal intrigues, all the while trying to contol their chaotic demon subjects, and fend off incursions from the wilds of the Abyss beyond their borders. [edit: a bit like ancient Rome.]

Devils can appear magnificent (to beguile), or monstrous (to intimidate... or when they loose their temper).


Ultimately I don't care if WotC changes their "default" cosmology. I have my own ideas, and would only pick over theirs for some inspiration.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

These changes largely mirror my own thoughts on how these creatures should fit in the game.

 

[hong]

This is very cool. A bit overly Judaeo-Christian, but still very cool. As someone who never really cared for the Great Wheel, the reification of alignment or Planescape, the further they get from that setup, the better as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

I wonder whats next the powers that be decide that Balors and Pit Fiends are too much alike and decide one of them has got to go? I don't like it.

I do. They are, in fact, too similar to each other.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Alot of fiends are interested in collecting mortal souls, but they do so in drastically different ways. Should we combine them all?

Should we merge glabrezu into succubi, since they're demonic tempters as well? Perhaps tossing in arcanaloths and harvester devils as well? Rename them as Temptation Fiends, and leave it at that?

Hyperbole aside, there's a point where streamlining jumps the shark. Combining Succubi and Erinyes into one monster risks jumping over, well, this thing:

As someone who is not at all infatuated with Planescape, these changes make sense to me.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I do. They are, in fact, too similar to each other.

While I agree they're somewhat similar on a purely physical level, I'd like to see them further differentiated, rather than combined.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

... merging succubus and eryines? Excuse me? Not only is that an incredibly poor writing decision - to attempt to merge two creatures that serve *entirely* different, parallel and *contrasting* roles... but I find that on some level personally offensive. They're alike only in that they're "hot females" - does this mean the new writing team thinks one "hot female" is interchangeable with the other?

Me too! Why, I have half a mind to report them to Sexual Harassment Panda!

 

[Brennin Magalus]

While I agree they're somewhat similar on a purely physical level, I'd like to see them further differentiated, rather than combined.

I agree with Rich Baker's decision to have devils be humanoid in appearance and demons be 'outwardly monstrous.' Although, perhaps pit fiends could be the result of Balors transformed by the powers of Hell to serve them.