Changes to Devils and Demons

[Sammael]

And I fail to see why 1e/2e/3e "there is no difference between demons and devils, they look the same except for their alignment" was superior to 4e "devils are humanoid fallen angels, demons are abomination from the outer planes". :\

If you can say that, I can only conclude that you have never read a single line of fluff on evil outsiders from either the Planescape setting, or the 3.x planar books (including the two Fiendish Codices).

 

[Rystil Arden]

If you prefer the old fluff, is there a problem I'm not seeing in keeping it for your own campaign? I don't see any negative consequences for doing so, but I may be missing something.

I'm guessing the strongest reactions may be from those who were hoping for a nice fluffy new Planescape book for 4e, especially in light of Scott's awesome "Brand Manager of Fluff" thread.

Although there is probably still some chance of a Planescape book that ignores the changes, it seems unlikely. The succubus/erinyes thing is probably the hardest to deal with because it requires not only moving back the succubus to the demons but also recreating crunch for the erinyes. Though I suppose it wouldn't be terribly difficult either.

 

[Shemeska]

imagine what they're doing to the four breeds of celestials. Did I say four? Hmmm... I suspect only aasimon (angels) will survive the cut unchanged.

Well we've already seen an eladrin in the preview material, so I suspect we'll see the four types retained.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Good. Again, it's about time. They are too similar.

Mm, steak.

It also makes all that wonderful fluff in the two Fiendish Codices we all just bought completely useless.

Not if one should happen to remain a 3e DM.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't like the ad hoc Ice Devils are really demons but we fudged it, so they're devils.

That's actually from the AD&D 2e Hell book.... the Ice Devils were originally rulers of a small plane that was conquered in primeval times by the devils. However, in 3e, succubi were also odd men out... fallen angels, who ended up settling in the Abyss for whatever reason and continued to breed true as a race.

I like the general sound of things... however, I don't think devils should be too human-like. I think some of them should be really strange. I think the distinction is that devils should embody "sins" or specific forms of horror, demons should just be horrific and inimical.

There is one thing about this that cheeses me off... I recently acquired and really like the two Fiendish Codices. Those books claimed they would be considered canonical going forward... well, that lasted a few months!

 

[Sammael]

Well we've already seen an eladrin in the preview material, so I suspect we'll see the four types retained.

Retained, maybe (although I am quite worried for the guardinals... and the archons may be merged with aasimon). Filling the same roles as today? Bloody unlikely.

 

[TerraDave]

If you prefer the old fluff, is there a problem I'm not seeing in keeping it for your own campaign? I don't see any negative consequences for doing so, but I may be missing something.

Its nice when the core books don't contradict your world/campaign, especially for no good reason.

I am getting the feeling they are doing more on the "fluff" side then they really need to. I mean, I like some of the origin stuff done a long , long time ago (see the sahaguin in Eldritch Wizardry as an example) but the reality is that the easier it is for DMs to use these monsters (or classes, races, whatever) the better. And to much "fluff" like this may make them harder to use.

 

[Aloïsius]

If you can say that, I can only conclude that you have never read a single line of fluff on evil outsiders from either the Planescape setting, or the 3.x planar books (including the two Fiendish Codices).

I deed. A lot. Do you have a real arguments to sustain your point of view, rather than shooting "stupid, ignorant!" ?

 

[Jer]

Yeah, but it's fluff that will almost certainly also apply to Forgotten Realms, Eberron, any Planescape reissue they do, and any new published setting. It also makes all that wonderful fluff in the two Fiendish Codices we all just bought completely useless.

Wha? No it doesn't - that fluff is still there, ready to use any time you might want it. I certainly intend to use both of those codexes (codexi? codecii? Hmmm) in my games, much like I continue to mine Planescape material for ideas and neat things to do with demons/devils/yugoloths. I don't really care what fluff they put in there - my game is still mine and I can do what I want with it.

And again, I reiterate, if Wizards puts these fluff changes into all of their settings across the board then they are dumb. What is the point of buying a different published setting if all of their settings have the same "feel"? For example, these changes aren't going to impact Eberron much at all because Eberron has:

* No Asmodeus
* No Nine Hells
* Not really much of a distinction between devils and demons anyway

I don't expect the feel of the published settings to change to match the "implied setting" in the core books. If Wizards does that, they're shooting themselves in their collective feet.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I personally dig it. I never liked that the demons and devils of old could have easily been called something else.