D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[DEFCON 1]

Well, Sleep plus coup-de-grace or double-tap has been very efficiently killing things since 1974, so I think the precedent is solidly established.

That's not the spell killing the person... that's other people doing things after the magic has been cast. You need the right combination of attacking character, no other enemies in the way to stop the advance, and low-enough hit point level of the sleeping creature to possibly assure an insta-kill in that case. As opposed to Command sending someone off a cliff and insta-killing most non-flying creatures. There are enough other steps required in the former that I can accept the possibility, as opposed to the rules interpretation of turning the creature mindless and with no sense of self-preservation on the latter. But that's just me.

 

[Reynard]

There is no decision point in the spell's description. It's intended, I think, to be weighed against forced movement. Given you don't need to even understand the command spoke, and it's a compulsion, I just don't see the creature having the option to think "But I might die and I need to avoid dying" in the spell anymore. They have the option to flee away from you by the fastest available means. Jumping off a cliff would be the fastest available means, if the cliff drop leads them away from you.

The spell does not say anything about changing the creature's personality or awareness or anything else. It plants a singular, specific compulsion in the target's mind. The target then follows that compulsion as if of its own free will.

The flee command requires it move away from the target the fastest way it can. That's it. As long as the creature follows that directive it can still pick its route and method.

 

[TwoSix]

This is a pretty solid example of why spells that create mental effects, but are using "natural language" to do so, shouldn't mix.

Either you leave it up to table adjudication, or you spell out exactly how the spell is impacting the target, explicitly factoring into account the perceptions of the target and what emotion or action is being compulsed.

 

[ECMO3]

The spell does not say anything about changing the creature's personality or awareness or anything else. It plants a singular, specific compulsion in the target's mind. The target then follows that compulsion as if of its own free will.

I don't see anything in the description as if of its free will. IME it is about as much "free will" as when the target is turned into a Zombie by Finger of Death.

As a matter of fact I think it is specifically against its free will

The flee command requires it move away from the target the fastest way it can. That's it. As long as the creature follows that directive it can still pick its route and method.

Ok, but if the "fastest way" is over Lava or off a cliff or through a wall of fire and than that is what it does, because that is what is required.

 

[Reynard]

I don't see anything in the description as if of its free will. IME it is about as much "free will" as when the target is turned into a Zombie by Finger of Death.

As a matter of fact I think it is specifically against its free will



Ok, but if the "fastest way" is over Lava or off a cliff or through a wall of fire and than that is what it does, because that is what is required.

You can run it however you want but you are simply adding details that aren't in the spell description.

I will say that if players decided this is how they wanted it to work at the table, I would totally oblige them.

 

[TwoSix]

You can run it however you want but you are simply adding details that aren't in the spell description.

I will say that if players decided this is how they wanted it to work at the table, I would totally oblige them.

That's the great thing about natural language; we can all be wrong simultaneously!

 

[Sulicius]

This is a pretty solid example of why spells that create mental effects, but are using "natural language" to do so, shouldn't mix.

Either you leave it up to table adjudication, or you spell out exactly how the spell is impacting the target, explicitly factoring into account the perceptions of the target and what emotion or action is being compulsed.

For sure, and I think one of the goals for the revised 5e ruleset was to have less "Mother, may I?" rules, where the DM interpretation could arbitrarily take away intended design or player fun.

It's really hard to balance, where on the one hand a DM is a stabilizing factor of the game, making rules judgement to ensure fun and verisimillitude for all (which can be at odds often), while on the other hand, the DM can really do a number on what is intended design.

Some DM's, for instance, did believed that sneak attack was too strong, and often took away the rogue's ability to make use of the feature because of that.

As for Command, the intent seemed clear to me. The spell has been made more effective, though less flexible, and I really interepreted this change to be intentional.

Now we see some interpretations that make the PC find invisible doors on one hand, and have free will to comply on the other hand.

I just think this should be a level 2 spell, that's all.

 

[ECMO3]

Ok. But not into lava. Because then you are stuck. Or to death, then you don't move anymore.

I agree with you here. Lava is not defined in 5E AFAIK. I've had DMs play with it being difficult terrain, I've had DMs play with it being like water and you could swim in it and I've had DMs say you could walk on it normally.

I've never had one rule that you got stuck, although that probably makes the most sense (more than swimming certainly) and if this is what Lava did at your table then one would not try to run through it.

No. But if the spell detects an invisible wall of force, I command you to flee when you are in room without a different exit. I block the only exit. The spell will force you to find the invisible secret door so you can move away.

Situationally possibly. It would have to meet a wierd combination of specific geometry and movement and you would need to be able to open the secret door as part of your move. If all those things were true then I guess yes. I've never seen that in play though.

Ok. If my boss tells me to flee, I use the fastest one to escape safely if possible. Because killing myself is not fleeing per definition of the rules.

"Fleeing" is not being commanded to Flee per the spell and a fall off a cliff will not kill most PCs. Fall damage is capped at 20d6.

There is nothing about safety in the 2024 spell. Not only this, that verbiage was actually removed, the 2014 version of that spell did have that caveat. They purposely removed it, if they wanted that to be a consideration they would have left it in there.

Command is a powerful spell, but it is hardly OP compared to other 1st level spells. It is generally less powerful than Sleep and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. In some specific circumstances it is better than these two.

If jumping is the only possible way to have a chance of survival, I take my chances and jump.

Like I said any PC with over 10hps has a "chance" to survive a fall from any height and any PC over 35 hps is probably going to survive that fall.

(Imagine a fire in your home. You should flee. If you can safely exit without juming through a window, I guess you do).

That is different than a spell commanding me to flee. If someone casts Hold Person can I choose not to be paralyzed because it is suicidal and only be paralyzed if it is safe to be so. What about being commanded to "Drop" my sword or "Grove" and go prone. These are generally far more dangerous in combat to most creatures than jumping off of a cliff. Can I choose not to do these too?

There is a difderence however. Thunderwave does not make you flee.

No but it makes me lose hit points, should I be able to avoid that if I fail a save and it is not safe to lose those hit points? I was not considering the push effect of thunderwave when I posted it, but shouldn't I be able to avoid that too if it is not safe?

Should I google it again for you?

The spell does not say it causes the target to ACTUALLTY flee. It doesn't say that anywhere in it. This is a fundamental difference between the 2014 version and the 2024 version.

Me too.

How do you have experience with this when you don't allow the spell to be used this way?

The claim is that push is more powerful in play for pushing people into things or off of heights and that is based on experience with push and the 2024 version of command. If you haven't allowed this to be done with command what is the experience you are basing this on?

Because it is a way of moving that you are used to. Jumping down a cliff takes away your ability to move.

How does being insane change that? Sane and insane people generally move in the same fashion.

It says you should move the fastest way possible. If you jump from a cliff, you go down. That does not dramatically increase the distance first. So do we have to model it in 3d first and look which way is faster?

Sure I agree with this. It is highly situational and not something I have seen personally (although I have seen jumping off of buildings). That underscores why it is not extremely powerful

Edit2:
One last question... in your games, if a high level spellcaster is commanded to flee, do they have to cast teleport to get to the farthest away place they know?

Teleport is not movement and requires an action. The spell specifies you spend your turn moving so they can not teleport or cast mistystep or cast Jump or Levitate or spider climb or do anything that requires an action or bonus action on their turn even if it gets them further away. Again they are not running away or "fleeing" as they would from a fire. They are doing what the spell compels, same as if it was sleep or hold person or whatever else.

Since the spell requires movement you can do anything normally done as part of movement, so:

In the secret door hypothetical above, they could open the secret door if it was something they could do as part of their movement, but not if it requires Utilize or something else (which depends on the specifics of the secret door).

They could move their Conjured Celestial to damage enemies or heal themselves and allies (done part of movement). If they run by an ally that ally could grapple them using an AOO/Unarmed strike and the person being commanded could purposely fail the save thereby stopping their movement at that point. If they know they are running off a cliff they could yell out for an ally to cast Feather Fall (they can't cast it themselves because that would be a reaction on their turn).

 

[Reynard]

"Flee" can't force the target to go a specific direction. It has no control, only a compulsion. If the target has multiple avenues of equal "speed" they are free to choose. Trying to power up command is metagame, power munchkin nonsense and if my players demanded it, they would very quickly find themselves on the receiving end.

 

[Lazybones]

In my game, if there was a cliff as an option, I'd allow the player character to flee alongside it even if technically dropping off it would increase the distance between them and the caster. If there was no other option, I'd allow them to try climbing down the cliff (with an appropriate chance of falling).