D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[ECMO3]

I'm interested: if you were DMing and had a caster give the command "flee," and I responded with my character doing the spiral gimmick, how would you rule?

I would rule that is not the "fastest available means" moreover you would not tell me anything if you failed the save, I would tell you where you are going. I don't believe the being that failed the save has any agency here.

Let's assume my character has the "fly" spell active and so can turn with no loss of movement. Literal wording: "Flee. The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means." Check; nothing there about achieving the maximum distance from you.

So this relies on an alternative and admittedly ambiguous definition of the sentence and phrasing.

the wording is:

".. moving away from you by the fastest available means."

The spell clearly requires this. If you interpret the term "fastest" as a magnitude which only applies to the means then it is simply the fastest speed you can obtain regardless of direction and the direction can be any that is away. If you interpret it as a vector quantity measured in a specific direction, which is certainly what is intended IMO, then spiraling around is not the "fastest" unless there is something that restricts you from moving away in a linear fashion.

To illustrate this if we are in NYC and I say to get in your car and drive to LA by the "fastest available means" you could take that to mean drive your car as fast as it will possibly go but not necessarily in the direction that gets you closest to LA, or you could take it to mean drive it in the manner and route that gets you to LA the fastest. Your interpretation is consistent with the former, mine is consistent with the latter.

Moving as fast as possible in a fashion that also moves you some amount further away is not the same moving away as fast as possible and I think the spell requires the latter.

So suffice it to say I think this interpretation could be a RAW interpretation, but I do not agree with it and it is not the only possible one.

I will also add that accepting that definition here could also affect other spells including Fear, Dissonant Whispers and Compulsion.

My ruling would be simple: "Don't be dumb; your character tries to get away to the best of their ability given their circumstances, because that's what fleeing is." But I will always default to narrative coherence over RAW.

I think the specific hypotheticals we are talking about now are strawmen that I have never seen in play, which were originally proposed by people who's real purpose is to present an argument to weaken the spell in highly situational circumstances that do rarely occur (i.e. running across lava or off of a cliff).

I think the designers did not intend to have people use the spell to find a secret door or difficult terrain and I've never seen that done. If the invisible wall situation happened in my game I probably would not even remember it or this thread. But I think the designers very much do intend to have people run across lava or off a cliff if these are the fastest means and they even changed the specifics and took out wording regarding self harm to facilitate exactly that.

If you accept that, then the rest of the hypothetical examples I commented on are just consistent application of the mechanics to satisfy those hypothetical strawmen.

But if you insist on RAW, wouldn't you have to agree to the silly spiral or the hidden door?

No.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah. What I said.

No you said they could "divine" an invisible wall. They absolutely can not do that with this spell. No way. They would not know an invisibile wall was there even as they were running around it, or even after they ran around it and it was their turn.

Perhaps they could metagame and determine there was an invisible wall, but that is not the same as divining it.

No Divining at all!

Yeah. And the enchantment will have them bump against the wall.

And for some reason it won't make you run off a cliff if said wall wasn't there?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No you said they could "divine" an invisible wall. They absolutely can not do that with this spell. No way. They would not know an invisibile wall was there even as they were running around it, or even after they ran around it and it was their turn.

Perhaps they could metagame and determine there was an invisible wall, but that is not the same as divining it.

No Divining at all!




And for some reason it won't make you run off a cliff if said wall wasn't there?

Because the cliff is not invisivle...

As I said. Can't help you. You clearly don't want to see the problem.

 

[ECMO3]

Because the cliff is not invisivle...

As I said. Can't help you. You clearly don't want to see the problem.

There is no problem.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There is no problem.

Not for me, not for you. We had one if we ever sat at the same table.

 

[Lanefan]

No I never said that. The magic forces and individual to move away at the fastest possible, if that is around an invisible wall that is what happens.

It is not guiding at all, as you said it is not a divinination! It is an enchantment; it is moving the recipients feet or flapping its wings or whatever and forcing it to move.

Now that's another interesting, if likely incorrect, interpretation - that the magic is directly causing the feet to move or the wings to flap, as opposed to the magic merely compelling the target to flee (or grovel, or whatever) like any other compulsion effect and leaving the actual running-flying bits up to the target's brain and physiology to sort out.

 

[Lanefan]

I would rule that is not the "fastest available means" moreover you would not tell me anything if you failed the save, I would tell you where you are going. I don't believe the being that failed the save has any agency here.

Which tells me you're ruling the fleeing is uncontrolled, as if in complete mindless panic.

As long as that's the basis you've got this sat on, it makes a lot more sense. I rule that fright-causing spells like Spook (I think it's called Fear now, same idea) or Cloak of Fear cause mindless fleeing, so I'm used to this idea.

I think the argument many are presenting here, though, including me to some extent, is that for a bunch of reasons the fleeing caused by Command: Flee is not mindless panic. We've already determined, I think, that Command doesn't impose the frightened condition and thus a "fearless" effect won't stop it, and as 5e is all about "conditions" either the condition is in effect or it is not. And if the target isn't frightened then a great deal more control over its actions is retained...other than having to get away from the caster.

Where it gets messy for me is that if it's not a capital-f Fright-based effect, what is it? It's not a compulsion, similar to Suggestion, 'cause if it was then things that defeat charms and compulsions should also stop Command...but they don't. So it Command a corner case that doesn't fit with anything else?

 

[Clint_L]

The spell clearly requires this. If you interpret the term "fastest" as a magnitude which only applies to the means then it is simply the fastest speed you can obtain regardless of direction and the direction can be any that is away. If you interpret it as a vector quantity measured in a specific direction, which is certainly what is intended IMO, then spiraling around is not the "fastest" unless there is something that restricts you from moving away in a linear fashion.

To illustrate this if we are in NYC say to get in your car and drive to LA by the "fastest available means" you could take that to mean drive your car as fast as it will possibly go but not necessarily in the direction that gets you closest to LA, or you could take it to mean drive it in the manner that gets you to LA the fastest. Your interpretation is consistent with the former, mine is consistent with the latter.

But the spell says nothing about a destination, so that analogy doesn't work.

If a creature has access to a spell like Plane Shift, does Command suddenly become like a level 1 Banishment?

 

[ECMO3]

Now that's another interesting, if likely incorrect, interpretation - that the magic is directly causing the feet to move or the wings to flap, as opposed to the magic merely compelling the target to flee (or grovel, or whatever) like any other compulsion effect and leaving the actual running-flying bits up to the target's brain and physiology to sort out.

It is an enchantment, of course it is, just like with compulsion, or hold person, or Tasha's Hideous Laughter, or Dissonant Whispers. These are all enchantments that are forcing the creature to do specific things.