Changing Feinting in combat to SM vs. SM

EvilGM

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This change was proposed by a fellow player in a grim 'n' gritty campaign a friend of mine is running. I was wondering if anyone here had any feedback on this proposed change. We could use some impartial views.

Right now Feint is a bluff check versus your opponents sense motive + base attack bonus. The change would be that instead of a bluff vs. sense motive it would be a sense motive vs. a sense motive.

Why the change, because Bluff is a charisma based skill involving mostly verbal communication. Sense motive versus sense motive makes more sense because you are trying to gage what your opponent is doing while they are trying to do the same to you.

There has been considerable feedback from the other players in the campaign which I can post if anyone is interested in our comments.

Thanks!
 

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Well, since I was the one who proposed it, and since EvilDM did not fully explain the debate, I will post my last e-mail for you to view, which more clearly states why I feel that it should be changed, mind you however, we are not suggesting changing the rules nation wide, this is for our use.

From my E-Mails:

I knew this was a mistake even bringing it up against the doom squad of death. Paul, you can't start counting votes yet, I get to comment on what they are saying first, wait until Saturday until you tally votes.

Actually smart ass (refering to Jason, see his e-mail below) I have 5 ranks in bluff and 5 ranks in sense motive, so there, I already blew skills in both. I simply think, in spite of how John (see bottom to view John's email) feels about CHR based bluff, that feinting in combat is more of a physical action than a verbal one and that a CHR based check would not be appropriate.

I actually think that Bluff makes sense (to a certain degree), however, I feel that misdirecting an attack should be made with a different modifier than the CHR that Bluff replies on. Feinting is a far more physical maneuver and I had originally suggest to Paul that we use DEX as the modifier instead of CHR, but since G&G is so heavily DEX based already we both came to the conclusion that it would be unbalancing.

I had then suggested that finding ways to feint an opponent through misdirection and by outwitting your opponent is simalr to the Duelist Prestiege class who relies on INT for such things so I had suggested making the feint a Bluff roll but using the INT modifier instead of the CHR modifier.

It was Paul that came up with the idea for a sense motive versus a sense motive figuring that you are judging each others actions.

Why should it not be a CHR based skill roll?

To answer Jason's first question, NOT because it is my only ability not to have a bonus, I have a 10 if you are wondering, a sense motive check would go off WIS, which I have a 12. To answer Dustin's comment, it would give me a net of +1 from what I have now. As much as you may think I want it something else because I will then be the uber character from hell you are wrong, sorry to disappoint. I should have had Paul just ask so as not to bias the question.

No, not because of that, it is because even though the PHB lists the bluff skill as making the outrageous or the untrue seem plausible, or use double speak or innuendo to deliver a secret message to another character. The skill encompasses acting, conning, fast talking, misdirection, prevarication and misleading body language. However, CHR, the modifier for Charisma, measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magetism, ability to lead and physical attractiveness. Checks that represent attempts to influence others rely on this ability. There is no mention on the ability for any type of out witting or physical ability to misdirect (which I think they mean in this instance as mislead information or train of thought, not with the body) or mislead with body language.

I figured that Bluff makes sense but the modifier should be DEX (for feintint only mind you, not normal bluff rolls) since your DEX controls your balance and is influential in other misdirecting skills, such as Sleight of Hand, and therefor made more sense than CHR. Given the heavy DEX reliability for G&G I conceded that we should find another happy medium that made sense.

As I have stated before, that is how I came up with INT, which would more accurately be a better modifier than CHR since skills like Spellcraft (which is mostly a combat skill) are used to determine what type of spells are being cast at a moments notice so they can be countered, much like misdirecting anothers movements in combat and moving your blade in another direction with a moments notice to find a weakness in there defense, leaving them open to attack when you feint them.

I would not mind a +2 synergy bonus to Feinting for having five ranks in Sense Motive and perhaps another +2 for five ranks in Sleight of Hand (which I had one point in but lost somehow, don't get me started:)) instead of switching the skill needed to roll on. I just don't think that feinting makes sense as a CHR based skill.

So, I would propse that the vote be on one of the following (barring that Paul doesn't mind the extended range of the vote)

A) Move Bluff to a sense motive check so it would be a Sense Motive versus a Sense Motive. Reason why, you are sensing each other up and trying to figure out who is going to react and where they are going to strike. Also, sense motive is WISDOM based wich is more akin to tuning in to anothers thought, perception, mind set and more importantly, intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. If you want your character to have acute senses you give them a high Wisdom, which should give you an ability to feint your opponent more easily.

B) Keep it Bluff but make it a DEX modifier bonus instead of CHR. (Paul won't go for it but it would be interesting to see who would vote for it if he did, if you vote for this one vote for another as well) Reason why, CHR does not make sense for a combat ability, it should be more closely keyed to a physical ability and DEX just makes the most sense for misdirection, see sleight of hand for more.

C) Keep it a Bluff but make it an INT Modifier bonus instead of CHR. Basically for the same reason as B, so why C, because B will never pass and this would be the next best ability to use. Alternatively, vote for this one if you think it should perhaps be STR or INT.

D) Keep it the way it is but give a +2 synergy bonus if you have 5 or more ranks in Sense motive and +2 synergy bonus if you have 5 or more ranks in sleight of hand and if you think Robillard is gay (okay, that may bias the vote). Reason why, because I can tumble and you can't, oh, the other part, because feinting in combat doesn't make sense as a CHR base ability and it makes sense that by having 5 (the standard for synergy bonus) ranks in sense motive and sleight of hand would improve ones ability to mislead your opponent in battle, thus improving your chances of catching him unaware.

D 1/2) All of the above :) J/K, duh.

E) Keep it the same

F) Other - specify

Please reply if have comments and I will respond ;p


My original e-mail:

Hey guys,

Paul and I were talking and we came up with a newer version of improved Feint, or just feinting in combat I general. Paul has pretty muched okayed the idea, but I think he wants me to run it by you guys in case you decide to make use of it in the future. I think that I am the only one to have used it in the past and I really don't think others will, however, I think he wants the vote in case you may be so inclined. Try not to think of how more gay Robillard would be with this, he already has it, and try not to think about if it is better for the party. Just read and evaluate and we will vote on Saturday. Feel free to call me or write back if you want to know more details.

Right now Feint is a bluff check versus your opponents sense motive + base attack bonus. The change would be that instead of a bluff versus a sensemotive it would be a sense motive versus a sense motive. Correct me if I am wrong Paul, but I think we were also voting on if if the attacker gets to add their base attack to the roll as well.

Why the change, because Bluff is a charisma based skill involving mostly verbal communication. Sense motive versus sense motive makes more sense because you are trying to gage what your opponent is doing while they are trying to do the same to you. The addition of the base attack to the feinter's roll makes the roll more fair since you are using your weapon or attack to mislead them, if anything there attack bonus added to the roll makes less sense, since they are not attacking. In G&G it could even be the attacker's base attack versus the defender's base defense, but that might get complicated. Paul, feel free to elaborate if I missed something.

Anyway, got to run, write back or call and I guess we will vote on Saturday.



John's e-mail:

The description of the "Bluff" skill includes such things as "Acting,
Misdirection, and Misleading Body Language" which seems to cover the types
of actions you would be doing if you were trying to Feint someone.. ie, a
fake lunge, acting like you're injured and crying out in pain to lure
someone in close, looking over someone's shoulder and widening your eyes to
make them think someone's behind them, etc..

I know you'll think I'm acting the "spoiler" here Rocco but it just doesn't
leap out at me as a change that needs to be made..


Jason's e-mail who wrote the following:
I can see how 5 ranks of Sense Motive could give ya +2 synergy bonus to your Bluff checks for Improved Feint, but these skills are separate for a reason... If you want to be good at both sides of feinting you're going to have to burn twice the skill points. It's an inherent balance in the system.

Let me guess... your charisma isn't that good and/or you didn't take any points in bluff but you did in sense motive? )
 

Well, I disagree with your basic premise. You seem to indicate that a combat feint is mostly a dex type move, and I disagree. It has a *lot* to do with force of presence, timing, making someone 'think' they know what you are doing, focusing on an area,etc. Sure, I can pretend to attack your leg, and then attack your head, but who cares. What makes it a feint is that I get you to *believe* I am attacking your leg. And that is often done without much (if any) physical movement.
I don't fake you out of position, as much as get you to fake yourself out of position. Just like a good orator doesn't make you do something, but gets you to want to do it on your own.

I have no problem with it being a separate skill, nor with it being CHA based. (I could go for dual synergy bonuses, but that would only help those with it get better.)

.
 

Charisma Is used for communication. A huge part of communication is body language. Body language is one aspect used to fient ie Charisma applies to fient/bluff.

Or at least that is a rational reason.

Char affects bluff by controlling the "tells" of body langauge and it applies to combat as well.

Just my thought.

Later
 

When you feint, you're trying to trick someone.

Sense motive is about trying to figure out what someone's intentions or feelings are, or to feel out a situation.

Bluff is about tricking people.
 

Well Coredump, you actually agree with my basic premise.


The way I came up with the fact that DEX should be the modifier for Bluff in combat Feinting is by looking at the Sleight of Hand skill, which is all about making someone believe something that they should not, misdirecting your opponent so as to hide an object or make them look else where while you take their pocket watch or coin bag. That is the basic premise of a feint, not how attractive or persuassive you are, as the Charisma ability clearly states it is more used for.

Jester, your response was not as indepth, but if you have an insight into what someone's intentions are in combat you have a much easier time trying to fool them.

Mainly, the point is not whether Sense Motive is the best skill to be used but that Bluff, or at least the CHR modfier attacthed to Bluff, is not. Knowing that, and barring the use of DEX as a modifier since that ability is already heavily over used and the DM won't allow that, what else makes more sense than the CHR based Bluff. The DM is willing to change because he believes, as I do, that Bluff doesn't make sense, as stated above. Knowing that, what do you think would make more sense.
 

Well, though I do see where you're coming from, I still think Bluff is what you want to use.

Although being all quick and dextrous might help you feint, if your body language gives away the true direction of your blow, or if you don't look like you're fully committed to attacking where you're feinting, or any other number of similar things, you're not gonna fool anyone. If you're moving into position and generally acting in a way that shows that you're going after your enemy's groin and you jerk a little towards his arm, he's not gonna be fooled.

On the other hand, if you're able to project that you're attacking his arm you can make him leave his groin uncovered. If your boldness convinces him that you're striking in a straightforward way you can inflict a sneaky shot when he's not expecting it.

I think cha makes a much better stat for bluffing.
 

DM-Rocco said:
Well Coredump, you actually agree with my basic premise.


The way I came up with the fact that DEX should be the modifier for Bluff in combat Feinting is by looking at the Sleight of Hand skill, which is all about making someone believe something that they should not, misdirecting your opponent so as to hide an object or make them look else where while you take their pocket watch or coin bag. That is the basic premise of a feint, not how attractive or persuassive you are, as the Charisma ability clearly states it is more used for.

I think that is taken care of with synergy bonuses. Sleight of hand is not about misdirection. It is about being able to *physically* do something without being noticed. I can reach my hand into your pocket, or cut your purse, or palm a coin, etc. It is based on physically, quickly, and subtley doing something. Hence the Dex modifier. You mention making someone look elsewhere. But that is not what it is doing, it is *just* grabbing an object and not being seen. Sure, I could see giving a +x synergy bonus if you could bluff the target first. But that is not the main thrust of the SoH skill.
And yes, the basic premise of a feint *is* how persuasive you are. That is precisely what you are doing, trying to trick them into believing something that is not true. Attractive has nothing to do with it.
If your premise about SoH was true, it would not be a reason to make feint Dex based, but rather making SoH Cha based.

Jester, your response was not as indepth, but if you have an insight into what someone's intentions are in combat you have a much easier time trying to fool them.
But they are still two different things. If you are really good at hiding, does that make you better at finding someone? So lets get rid of spot/search and just use hide. Now, if you want to use a synergy bonus, that would make sense. That is what synergy bonuses are all about. I could see giving a smuggler character with a high Hide skill a +x to find contraband on a ship. Or someone that feints in combat a lot a +x on their sense motive check. But feinting and detecting feints are two different things, as are hide and search.

Mainly, the point is not whether Sense Motive is the best skill to be used but that Bluff, or at least the CHR modfier attacthed to Bluff, is not. Knowing that......[/QUOTE]
But we don't know that. I think CHA is the perfect choice for this. Anyone can pretend to aim for my leg, and then try and hit my head, but you have to make me *believe* it for it to make any difference.

.
 

Having fenced, I'd say that Bluff + Cha is still the best way to go. If you are feinting in a real sword fight, it's not about 'outsmarting' your opponents (Int) or analysing where he's going to go (Wis). It's about making your opponent do what you want him to do. Huge parts of this are body language (covered by Cha), a sense of intimidating presence (make your opponent parry the wrong place out of fear/anxiety- again determined by Cha), and most importantly, convincingly being able to persuade your opponent that you are attacking him where you're not (Cha).
 

Okay, it seems that I am unable to convince you to my side, which is strange when you think about it since this should have been an internal problem between our players, oh well.

However, since we are going partially by what the ENworld forum posters think, it sounds like you think that Bluff with the CHR modifier should be used but perhaps you agree with a synergy bonus, of an unspecified amount, for having five or more ranks in one or more of the following skills: Sleight of Hand, Sense Motive.

Jester and AI, you present more pursasive arguments, Coredump, I still think that you are thinking along the same line as me, maybe because of the way you present it. AI, I too have had fencing XP, although I will admit it is limited, so I disagree with you on that premise, you still have to get your body to do, or go, to where you want it, or to appear as if you are going to where you want it, and in my opinion it would be DEX.

Alright, enough debate, the DM (no, I am not refering to myself in the third person :) , I am refering to our DM for G&G :( ) has called for a vote and we are playing today. Even if you read this post after today, cast your vote as stated in my first reply post. A,B,C,D,E or F. Feel free to elaborate and thanks for the input.
 

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