Well, since I was the one who proposed it, and since EvilDM did not fully explain the debate, I will post my last e-mail for you to view, which more clearly states why I feel that it should be changed, mind you however, we are not suggesting changing the rules nation wide, this is for our use.
From my E-Mails:
I knew this was a mistake even bringing it up against the doom squad of death. Paul, you can't start counting votes yet, I get to comment on what they are saying first, wait until Saturday until you tally votes.
Actually smart ass (refering to Jason, see his e-mail below) I have 5 ranks in bluff and 5 ranks in sense motive, so there, I already blew skills in both. I simply think, in spite of how John (see bottom to view John's email) feels about CHR based bluff, that feinting in combat is more of a physical action than a verbal one and that a CHR based check would not be appropriate.
I actually think that Bluff makes sense (to a certain degree), however, I feel that misdirecting an attack should be made with a different modifier than the CHR that Bluff replies on. Feinting is a far more physical maneuver and I had originally suggest to Paul that we use DEX as the modifier instead of CHR, but since G&G is so heavily DEX based already we both came to the conclusion that it would be unbalancing.
I had then suggested that finding ways to feint an opponent through misdirection and by outwitting your opponent is simalr to the Duelist Prestiege class who relies on INT for such things so I had suggested making the feint a Bluff roll but using the INT modifier instead of the CHR modifier.
It was Paul that came up with the idea for a sense motive versus a sense motive figuring that you are judging each others actions.
Why should it not be a CHR based skill roll?
To answer Jason's first question, NOT because it is my only ability not to have a bonus, I have a 10 if you are wondering, a sense motive check would go off WIS, which I have a 12. To answer Dustin's comment, it would give me a net of +1 from what I have now. As much as you may think I want it something else because I will then be the uber character from hell you are wrong, sorry to disappoint. I should have had Paul just ask so as not to bias the question.
No, not because of that, it is because even though the PHB lists the bluff skill as making the outrageous or the untrue seem plausible, or use double speak or innuendo to deliver a secret message to another character. The skill encompasses acting, conning, fast talking, misdirection, prevarication and misleading body language. However, CHR, the modifier for Charisma, measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magetism, ability to lead and physical attractiveness. Checks that represent attempts to influence others rely on this ability. There is no mention on the ability for any type of out witting or physical ability to misdirect (which I think they mean in this instance as mislead information or train of thought, not with the body) or mislead with body language.
I figured that Bluff makes sense but the modifier should be DEX (for feintint only mind you, not normal bluff rolls) since your DEX controls your balance and is influential in other misdirecting skills, such as Sleight of Hand, and therefor made more sense than CHR. Given the heavy DEX reliability for G&G I conceded that we should find another happy medium that made sense.
As I have stated before, that is how I came up with INT, which would more accurately be a better modifier than CHR since skills like Spellcraft (which is mostly a combat skill) are used to determine what type of spells are being cast at a moments notice so they can be countered, much like misdirecting anothers movements in combat and moving your blade in another direction with a moments notice to find a weakness in there defense, leaving them open to attack when you feint them.
I would not mind a +2 synergy bonus to Feinting for having five ranks in Sense Motive and perhaps another +2 for five ranks in Sleight of Hand (which I had one point in but lost somehow, don't get me started
) instead of switching the skill needed to roll on. I just don't think that feinting makes sense as a CHR based skill.
So, I would propse that the vote be on one of the following (barring that Paul doesn't mind the extended range of the vote)
A) Move Bluff to a sense motive check so it would be a Sense Motive versus a Sense Motive. Reason why, you are sensing each other up and trying to figure out who is going to react and where they are going to strike. Also, sense motive is WISDOM based wich is more akin to tuning in to anothers thought, perception, mind set and more importantly, intuition. Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surroundings. If you want your character to have acute senses you give them a high Wisdom, which should give you an ability to feint your opponent more easily.
B) Keep it Bluff but make it a DEX modifier bonus instead of CHR. (Paul won't go for it but it would be interesting to see who would vote for it if he did, if you vote for this one vote for another as well) Reason why, CHR does not make sense for a combat ability, it should be more closely keyed to a physical ability and DEX just makes the most sense for misdirection, see sleight of hand for more.
C) Keep it a Bluff but make it an INT Modifier bonus instead of CHR. Basically for the same reason as B, so why C, because B will never pass and this would be the next best ability to use. Alternatively, vote for this one if you think it should perhaps be STR or INT.
D) Keep it the way it is but give a +2 synergy bonus if you have 5 or more ranks in Sense motive and +2 synergy bonus if you have 5 or more ranks in sleight of hand and if you think Robillard is gay (okay, that may bias the vote). Reason why, because I can tumble and you can't, oh, the other part, because feinting in combat doesn't make sense as a CHR base ability and it makes sense that by having 5 (the standard for synergy bonus) ranks in sense motive and sleight of hand would improve ones ability to mislead your opponent in battle, thus improving your chances of catching him unaware.
D 1/2) All of the above
J/K, duh.
E) Keep it the same
F) Other - specify
Please reply if have comments and I will respond ;p
My original e-mail:
Hey guys,
Paul and I were talking and we came up with a newer version of improved Feint, or just feinting in combat I general. Paul has pretty muched okayed the idea, but I think he wants me to run it by you guys in case you decide to make use of it in the future. I think that I am the only one to have used it in the past and I really don't think others will, however, I think he wants the vote in case you may be so inclined. Try not to think of how more gay Robillard would be with this, he already has it, and try not to think about if it is better for the party. Just read and evaluate and we will vote on Saturday. Feel free to call me or write back if you want to know more details.
Right now Feint is a bluff check versus your opponents sense motive + base attack bonus. The change would be that instead of a bluff versus a sensemotive it would be a sense motive versus a sense motive. Correct me if I am wrong Paul, but I think we were also voting on if if the attacker gets to add their base attack to the roll as well.
Why the change, because Bluff is a charisma based skill involving mostly verbal communication. Sense motive versus sense motive makes more sense because you are trying to gage what your opponent is doing while they are trying to do the same to you. The addition of the base attack to the feinter's roll makes the roll more fair since you are using your weapon or attack to mislead them, if anything there attack bonus added to the roll makes less sense, since they are not attacking. In G&G it could even be the attacker's base attack versus the defender's base defense, but that might get complicated. Paul, feel free to elaborate if I missed something.
Anyway, got to run, write back or call and I guess we will vote on Saturday.
John's e-mail:
The description of the "Bluff" skill includes such things as "Acting,
Misdirection, and Misleading Body Language" which seems to cover the types
of actions you would be doing if you were trying to Feint someone.. ie, a
fake lunge, acting like you're injured and crying out in pain to lure
someone in close, looking over someone's shoulder and widening your eyes to
make them think someone's behind them, etc..
I know you'll think I'm acting the "spoiler" here Rocco but it just doesn't
leap out at me as a change that needs to be made..
Jason's e-mail who wrote the following:
I can see how 5 ranks of Sense Motive could give ya +2 synergy bonus to your Bluff checks for Improved Feint, but these skills are separate for a reason... If you want to be good at both sides of feinting you're going to have to burn twice the skill points. It's an inherent balance in the system.
Let me guess... your charisma isn't that good and/or you didn't take any points in bluff but you did in sense motive? )
) has called for a vote and we are playing today. Even if you read this post after today, cast your vote as stated in my first reply post. A,B,C,D,E or F. Feel free to elaborate and thanks for the input.
