Changing Saving Throws and DC's

[Sadrik]

How would this pan out as a house rule?

Make saves simply: a con check for fortitude saves, a dex check for reflex saves, and a wis check for will saves.

Then spell DC's dont scale with level. Spell DC's are 10 + casting stat.

Feats and magic items would become even more useful. Iron will anybody?

On the other end to improve DC's the feats would be really good. Spells become pretty weak DC-wise at high level. Hmm, how to make that work. Stat boosts alone would not be enough? My highest stat vs. one of your not necessarily highest stats is balanced. But that is where items, feats and buffs kick in the defender will have a big bonus. Change spell focus back to +2 and improved spell focus to +4? Any other fixes to this?

It gets rid of the multi class save stack hike effect that is a little frustrating to me.

What other areas does this affect that I am missing?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Monster spell-like abilities, poisons and other special attacks with saves based upon HD, stat and racial bonus.

Ability Focus feat.

Probably more stuff that I'm also missing.

 

[Andre]

What other areas does this affect that I am missing?

What you are in effect doing is making character level meaningless for saves. Unless a 20th level fighter has feats, items, or buffs that boost his stats, he has the same chance to blow a save as a commoner.

Note, I'm not saying basing saves on stats vs. stats + level is wrong - just wondering if that's the result you're going for.

 

[Nellisir]

What you are in effect doing is making character level meaningless for saves. Unless a 20th level fighter has feats, items, or buffs that boost his stats, he has the same chance to blow a save as a commoner.

Note, I'm not saying basing saves on stats vs. stats + level is wrong - just wondering if that's the result you're going for.

It's actually an interesting idea. It makes magic a bit stronger (since higher level spells have more potent effects), and potentially beefs up the threat of lower-level spells vs higher level characters. I kind of like the idea of a high-level fighter not shrugging his shoulders at magic.

 

[Sadrik]

Monster spell-like abilities, poisons and other special attacks with saves based upon HD, stat and racial bonus.

Monster spell like abilities are generally based on 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha. This would change to just 10 + Cha. Poisons could stay the same... Making them extremely deadly. Besides the poison rules are horrible anyway. But in all seriousness tone them down a bit.

Stat and racial bonuses are fine- Dwarves are very good that +2 vs magic is even better than it already was.

 

[Sadrik]

What you are in effect doing is making character level meaningless for saves. Unless a 20th level fighter has feats, items, or buffs that boost his stats, he has the same chance to blow a save as a commoner.

Note, I'm not saying basing saves on stats vs. stats + level is wrong - just wondering if that's the result you're going for.

A high level character wont have the same chance to blow saves as a 1st level character because like you said:"feats, items, or buffs that boost his stats".

The problem with this system is that a 9th level spell has the same DC as a 0 level spell (10+stat+other bonuses). This may be ok though. A 9th level spell has a much more powerful effect than a low level spell does. Should it also have a better DC too. 9th level spells are not only powerful because of their DC but their effects too.

In a way neutralizing the DC's of spells is similar to how the psion works. A psion can spend his power points to augment a power up to his highest level power giving it a maxed out DC in the process. So all of his DC's are the same in effect. This Save/DC variant works in reverse of that. All DC's are 10 +stat. A high level caster will have a very high stat 16 + level boost (+5) + inherent book (+5) + enhancement (+6) = 32. That will give his spell DC's a 22 without spell focus. That is insane going against a con, dex, or wis save that is not maxed out. Lets see: stat 16 wis (+3) + resistance bonus (+5), iron will (+2) = +10 will save. That means that the character will save against mind effecting magic on a 12 or better against a "maxed out" caster. I am happy with that. Some characters may not have the inherent book some people may not have the iron will.

BTW in the current system a 20th level common warrior and a 20th level fighter have the same bonuses to saves.

What if characters got one of the save boost feats for free at first level. For instance a rogue would have to put it in reflexes, a fighter fortitude, but a cleric could choose fortitude or will a monk could choose any etc?

 

[Andre]

A high level character wont have the same chance to blow saves as a 1st level character because like you said:"feats, items, or buffs that boost his stats".

True. I wasn't referring to the end result so much as the concept. I read somewhere the rule of thumb that if something should be easier for high-level characters, you make it a save or skill check. If the difficulty is the same for everyone, you make it a stat check. Your concept effectively says that gaining levels doesn't inherently make a creature any more resistant to magic.

The problem with this system is that a 9th level spell has the same DC as a 0 level spell (10+stat+other bonuses). This may be ok though. A 9th level spell has a much more powerful effect than a low level spell does. Should it also have a better DC too. 9th level spells are not only powerful because of their DC but their effects too.

That's one effect of your system that I like. As you say, high-level spells already tend to have big effects. I may adopt that piece for my own group - though it may nerf spellcasters too much. I'll have to test it and see...

One concern I have with your system is that a spellcaster only has to boost one stat to get very high spell DC's. The target needs to boost three stats to have the same defense. In effect, all characters are going to be weak against one or two types of saves, and possibly all three. I would guess that spellcasters would get a significant power boost relative to the other classes with this sytem.

Save-boosting feats should be very popular, as will SR. Otherwise your average high-level character will constantly fall prey to low-level daze, charm person, command, glitterdust, etc. And casters will have more of these low-level spells than their high-level ones, so may be more willing to throw them around in every fight. I may be wrong, but I think playtesting will show that this system will suffer too much from save-or-disabled (die) effects.

Which leads me to my last concern: It doesn't feel heroic. Player characters are supposed to be able to shrug off stuff that would level a mob of common folks. You'll have high-level characters who can take more damage than a bull elephant, but will be brought down by a lowly daze spell. A system where heroes are regularly blowing saves doesn't sound like a lot of fun (but will have a lot of tension...for a while).

All IMHO - since I haven't tested it, take these comments for what they are - mildly educated guesses.

 

[Nellisir]

That's one effect of your system that I like. As you say, high-level spells already tend to have big effects.

Ditto. The "big effects" sort of offsets the lack of DC increase.

One concern I have with your system is that a spellcaster only has to boost one stat to get very high spell DC's. The target needs to boost three stats to have the same defense. In effect, all characters are going to be weak against one or two types of saves, and possibly all three. I would guess that spellcasters would get a significant power boost relative to the other classes with this sytem.

Thought: what if stat modifiers to DCs varied with save type? You could do a "mental stat" matchup: Will - Wis, Ref - Int, Fort - Cha; or a straight match up - Will - Wis, Ref - Dex, Fort - Con. And keep the spell level limits on Int, so you need a high Int as well.

I like the idea that lower level spells will get more use, but the increased "save or die" is a concern. I'm toying with the idea of making more of those spells "save every round" types, or graduated types. It might decrease the "seriousness" of the game, if petrification is fleeting, but it also gets rid of the "one failed save and you're out" effect.

Which leads me to my last concern: It doesn't feel heroic. Player characters are supposed to be able to shrug off stuff that would level a mob of common folks. You'll have high-level characters who can take more damage than a bull elephant, but will be brought down by a lowly daze spell. A system where heroes are regularly blowing saves doesn't sound like a lot of fun (but will have a lot of tension...for a while).

I see where you're coming from, but I also think it feels more...fantastic. Magic is a little more dangerous. Counterspelling might be alot more popular.

I'd be curious to test this out.

 

[Sadrik]

True. I wasn't referring to the end result so much as the concept. I read somewhere the rule of thumb that if something should be easier for high-level characters, you make it a save or skill check. If the difficulty is the same for everyone, you make it a stat check. Your concept effectively says that gaining levels doesn't inherently make a creature any more resistant to magic.

Right. Saves get no easier by simply gaining levels. You have to get more trinkets, feats, stat boosts or spell buffs. But remember saves would not be as difficult to beat.

That's one effect of your system that I like. As you say, high-level spells already tend to have big effects. I may adopt that piece for my own group - though it may nerf spellcasters too much. I'll have to test it and see...

Lets see at 20th level characters have +12 or +6 to their base saves, an average of +9. Ninth level spells give +9. Multiclassing really throws a monkey wrench in the equation too. Base saves are not +6 or +12, they are more like +15. That really skews them in the direction of the players from where I think they intended the game to be. Ignoring the multiclass creep for a moment it is about balanced at high level but at that level it makes lower level spells less effective. That would be the trademark of using a system like this- it makes lower level spells more effective at higher levels.

The multiclass thing I see as a problem/loophole that needs to be fixed anyway so I dont mind if it completely wipes out the effectiveness of that tactic.

One concern I have with your system is that a spellcaster only has to boost one stat to get very high spell DC's. The target needs to boost three stats to have the same defense. In effect, all characters are going to be weak against one or two types of saves, and possibly all three. I would guess that spellcasters would get a significant power boost relative to the other classes with this sytem.

Ah yes that is a slight problem. However, Cloaks/Vests of resistance are very inexpensive (bonus squared x 1000) and they give a flat bonus to all. In my example in the previous post I pretty much maxed out the caster and the defender still had an 8 in 20 chance to save. If the caster was less than maxed out the defender would have a better chance to save. My real concern with this system was making the caster's DC's not effective enough! The opposite of what your worried about!

Save-boosting feats should be very popular, as will SR. Otherwise your average high-level character will constantly fall prey to low-level daze, charm person, command, glitterdust, etc. And casters will have more of these low-level spells than their high-level ones, so may be more willing to throw them around in every fight. I may be wrong, but I think playtesting will show that this system will suffer too much from save-or-disabled (die) effects.

In the psionics system I am sure many a character/creature was felled by a simple 1st level power- (Mind Thrust *20d10 damage*) the same concept here.

Which leads me to my last concern: It doesn't feel heroic. Player characters are supposed to be able to shrug off stuff that would level a mob of common folks. You'll have high-level characters who can take more damage than a bull elephant, but will be brought down by a lowly daze spell. A system where heroes are regularly blowing saves doesn't sound like a lot of fun (but will have a lot of tension...for a while).

It is the fundamental difference, I agree. What it does is make lower level spells have a better DC similar to how psionics flatten DC's. I can see a lot of advantages here...

All IMHO - since I haven't tested it, take these comments for what they are - mildly educated guesses.

Of course!

Thought: what if stat modifiers to DCs varied with save type? You could do a "mental stat" matchup: Will - Wis, Ref - Int, Fort - Cha; or a straight match up - Will - Wis, Ref - Dex, Fort - Con. And keep the spell level limits on Int, so you need a high Int as well.

To take this idea a step further: Cha and Wis could form your base will save, Int and Dex could form you base Reflex save and Strength and Constitution could form your base Fort save. This is quickly becoming interesting. And on the spell casting side their DC's could be derived from two stats too.
Cleric- wis and cha
Druid- wis and int
Wizard- int and wis
sorcerer- cha and wis

This would lead to a lot more min maxing. So, I actually dont like it. It is more likely that characters would have more average saves yet the caster who min/maxes would have a doubly powerful DC boost. Cool concept though.

I like the idea that lower level spells will get more use, but the increased "save or die" is a concern. I'm toying with the idea of making more of those spells "save every round" types, or graduated types. It might decrease the "seriousness" of the game, if petrification is fleeting, but it also gets rid of the "one failed save and you're out" effect.

The base assumption that these spells will be more effective in this system is slightly flawed- see above. They should be nearly the same effectiveness wise. And... the save or die IMHO is a problem anyway. The high level games I have played in have all been- "save or die" next step "failed roll" next step "spend 10k true res". It got old and annoying after a bit.

I see where you're coming from, but I also think it feels more...fantastic. Magic is a little more dangerous. Counterspelling might be alot more popular.

I think it is just more simple. And I think it is cool side effect that the DC's of lower level spells are still just as effective... (remember in general their effects are not as great as high level spells though).

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Sadrik, I like it.