Changing the Barbarian and Sorcerer
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Nifft
Penguin Herder
Really? No archers in your game then? I find Wizards need item creation feats, but zero points of Craft skill. What do you make them roll to craft a wand?evilbob said:
So... you're saying Wizards would pump their Knowledge skills anyway, and therefore allowing them to pump their Knowledge skills is an advantage favoring Wizards? I'm not seeing this, but okay.evilbob said:
Cheers, -- N
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
We use Summon Monster I.Darklone said:You don't use barbarians as trapspringers?
As mentioned above, Sorcerer's in my setting receive their powers from entering into a pact with a demon or devil lord. Demon and devil lords play a major role in my setting, akin to gods, but are mostly worshipped in secret. Because wizards and arcane magic in general is a heavily regulated and policed profession in my setting (e.g. all wizards are registered with a massive Arcane Order that controls the learning and development of arcane magic throughout humanity), sorcerers have to hide their talents or pretend to be wizards. Sorcerers are generally hunted down as rogue users of arcane magic by the Arcane Order.
I wanted to make the sorcerer a class that reflects the setting. I wanted something that resembles a quick and easy path to power, but has serious consequences (i.e. cannot utilize the Arcane Order who essentially control the purchase of spells and magic items without some mad bluff skillz, must hide their abilities from wizards, and are condemned to an eternity of servitude to their infernal patron).
Also, while the sorcerer seems to be evil (which he may or may not be), keep in mind that I am not using alignment in my setting.
Here are my proposed changes to the Sorcerer (I have only listed my additions, everything else is the same as in the SRD). I have changed the language around in the infernal blessings below, as they are taken from PH2 and FC2 and I didnt want to post them verbatum in this post.
Sorcerer
Skills:
added knowledge (planes), intimidate and use magic device to the sorcerer's class skills.
Class Features:
Infernal Contract: A sorcerer gains access to arcane spells directly as a result of entering into an infernal contract with a demon or devil lord in which he sells his soul in exchange for arcane power. If the sorcerer dies, his soul become the property of the demon or devil, forever condemning him to an eternity of slavery and servitude in their fiendish planar armies.
Infernal Blood: In addition to receiving the ability to cast arcane spells from his demonic or devilish patron, a sorcerer’s blood is infused with infernal energies, attuning him to the denizens of the lower planes. As the sorcerer increases in power, these energies manifest themselves as infernal blessings (see below). At first level, the sorcerer’s infernal blood grants him a +2 to his caster level when he uses a conjuration (summoning) spell to summon an evil outsider. He also gains a bonus to saves against fire and poison equal to the number of infernal blessings he possesses. For the purposes of determining the total number of blessings possessed by a sorcerer, his infernal blood counts as one blessing. For example, a 5th level sorcerer has two infernal blessings and a total bonus to his saves versus fire and poison of +2. (feat derived from infernal sorcerer heritage in PH2)
Infernal Blessing: As the sorcerer increases in power, the infernal energies in his blood manifest themselves as new and useable powers. At 5th level and every 5 levels after (10th, 15th and 20th) the sorcerer gains a new infernal blessing selected from the list below:
Infernal Sorcerer Howl (as written in PH2) - expend spell slot to create a cone of sonic energy.
Infernal Sorcerer Eyes (as written in PH2) - expend spell slot to gain darkvision for # of minutes = to spell level slot burned.
Infernal Sorcerer Resistance (as written in PH2) – gain resistance to acid and cold equal to the total number of infernal blessings you have.
Infernal Sorcerer Wings (derived from celestial sorcerer feat in PH2) – You can expend a spell slot as a standard action to sprout bat-like wings and gain the ability to fly for a number of rounds = to spell slot burned.
Infernal Stamina - You gain 2 extra hp for each infernal blessing you have and can gain fast healing equal to your total number of infernal blessings for 5 rounds. (feat derived from FC2)
Infernal Focus - You gain a +2 bonus on an attack, save, or check, useable a number of times per day equal to the number of infernal blessings you have. (feat derived from FC2)
Infernal Ally: At 7th level, the sorcerer is gifted with an infernal ally from the lower planes (mostly used by their infernal patron to keep an eye on them and to stay in contact - e.g. imp's commune ability). The sorcerer must spend 24 hours undergoing a vile ritual in which their existing familiar is sacrificed to their demonic or devilish patron (the sorcerer is not required to make the DC 15 fortitude save [see above] if the familiar dies in this manner). The sorcerer must consume the blood of their sacrificed familiar and recite foul prayers in which he reinforces his commitment to his patron. Upon completion of the ritual, their patron sends them a fiendish ally. If the sorcerer’s patron is a demon, he receives a Quasit. If the sorcerer’s patron is a Devil, he receives an Imp. The infernal ally ability functions exactly like taking the improved familiar feat.
Let me know what you think. Too powerful? Not interesting? Compelling? Viable alternative to a wizard? Too viable?
I wanted to make the sorcerer a class that reflects the setting. I wanted something that resembles a quick and easy path to power, but has serious consequences (i.e. cannot utilize the Arcane Order who essentially control the purchase of spells and magic items without some mad bluff skillz, must hide their abilities from wizards, and are condemned to an eternity of servitude to their infernal patron).
Also, while the sorcerer seems to be evil (which he may or may not be), keep in mind that I am not using alignment in my setting.
Here are my proposed changes to the Sorcerer (I have only listed my additions, everything else is the same as in the SRD). I have changed the language around in the infernal blessings below, as they are taken from PH2 and FC2 and I didnt want to post them verbatum in this post.
Sorcerer
Skills:
added knowledge (planes), intimidate and use magic device to the sorcerer's class skills.
Class Features:
Infernal Contract: A sorcerer gains access to arcane spells directly as a result of entering into an infernal contract with a demon or devil lord in which he sells his soul in exchange for arcane power. If the sorcerer dies, his soul become the property of the demon or devil, forever condemning him to an eternity of slavery and servitude in their fiendish planar armies.
Infernal Blood: In addition to receiving the ability to cast arcane spells from his demonic or devilish patron, a sorcerer’s blood is infused with infernal energies, attuning him to the denizens of the lower planes. As the sorcerer increases in power, these energies manifest themselves as infernal blessings (see below). At first level, the sorcerer’s infernal blood grants him a +2 to his caster level when he uses a conjuration (summoning) spell to summon an evil outsider. He also gains a bonus to saves against fire and poison equal to the number of infernal blessings he possesses. For the purposes of determining the total number of blessings possessed by a sorcerer, his infernal blood counts as one blessing. For example, a 5th level sorcerer has two infernal blessings and a total bonus to his saves versus fire and poison of +2. (feat derived from infernal sorcerer heritage in PH2)
Infernal Blessing: As the sorcerer increases in power, the infernal energies in his blood manifest themselves as new and useable powers. At 5th level and every 5 levels after (10th, 15th and 20th) the sorcerer gains a new infernal blessing selected from the list below:
Infernal Sorcerer Howl (as written in PH2) - expend spell slot to create a cone of sonic energy.
Infernal Sorcerer Eyes (as written in PH2) - expend spell slot to gain darkvision for # of minutes = to spell level slot burned.
Infernal Sorcerer Resistance (as written in PH2) – gain resistance to acid and cold equal to the total number of infernal blessings you have.
Infernal Sorcerer Wings (derived from celestial sorcerer feat in PH2) – You can expend a spell slot as a standard action to sprout bat-like wings and gain the ability to fly for a number of rounds = to spell slot burned.
Infernal Stamina - You gain 2 extra hp for each infernal blessing you have and can gain fast healing equal to your total number of infernal blessings for 5 rounds. (feat derived from FC2)
Infernal Focus - You gain a +2 bonus on an attack, save, or check, useable a number of times per day equal to the number of infernal blessings you have. (feat derived from FC2)
Infernal Ally: At 7th level, the sorcerer is gifted with an infernal ally from the lower planes (mostly used by their infernal patron to keep an eye on them and to stay in contact - e.g. imp's commune ability). The sorcerer must spend 24 hours undergoing a vile ritual in which their existing familiar is sacrificed to their demonic or devilish patron (the sorcerer is not required to make the DC 15 fortitude save [see above] if the familiar dies in this manner). The sorcerer must consume the blood of their sacrificed familiar and recite foul prayers in which he reinforces his commitment to his patron. Upon completion of the ritual, their patron sends them a fiendish ally. If the sorcerer’s patron is a demon, he receives a Quasit. If the sorcerer’s patron is a Devil, he receives an Imp. The infernal ally ability functions exactly like taking the improved familiar feat.
Let me know what you think. Too powerful? Not interesting? Compelling? Viable alternative to a wizard? Too viable?
evilbob
Adventurer
Crafting weapons and armor to then enchant is a fairly good use of the skill. Crafting constructs also needs lots of high-level craft skills. Never seen anyone else actually use the skills. Archers? Arrows are a jillion for 1g.Nifft said:Really? No archers in your game then? I find Wizards need item creation feats, but zero points of Craft skill. What do you make them roll to craft a wand?
Yes - because if they have even more points in skills they would have pumped anyway, that gives them more extra points they can use toward cross-class skills. It'd be like giving a rogue extra skill points that could be used for hide or move silent - ok, then that rogue would have a higher something else skill, since they already have points in hide and move silent. Make sense?Nifft said:
papastebu
First Post
The infernal sorcerer idea is a good one, but I would come at it from the other side, as well. There are a lot of situations--roleplaying oportunities--inherent in the idea of a divinely motivated arcanist trying to avoid "the Man". Ostensibly, the creature he or she made the pact with wants the soul uncluttered, and doing lawless things, even in the name of the greater good, might set them at odds with a patron. Just an idea.
I also like Nifft's idea about the barbarian as a savage. The feat should, however, be part of a society, or some such. I know that's approaching too lawful for barbarians, but all of the things I've ever read about the berserkers say that it was a cold and murderous battle-trance, and they learned it through training, rather than any natural proclivity. They were the "Bear Shirt Society", named for the bearskins they wore into battle, IIRC.
All of the things that the PHB says they could do, though, is pretty close to what the legend says, except the traps thingie--I think all of that comes from Conan--so if you change the flavor, I wouldn't change the mechanics much. The con and str bonuses fit right in, as does the will save, representing that they had little to no concern for their safety while raging.
To make things more interesting, you might increase their speed for each x berserker levels gained, but only while raging. Damage and hitpoint bonuses are inherent in str and con bonuses, but you might increase damage and reduce defense a bit more, again, while raging.
I'm probably re-hashing stuff you already know, so I'll go.
I also like Nifft's idea about the barbarian as a savage. The feat should, however, be part of a society, or some such. I know that's approaching too lawful for barbarians, but all of the things I've ever read about the berserkers say that it was a cold and murderous battle-trance, and they learned it through training, rather than any natural proclivity. They were the "Bear Shirt Society", named for the bearskins they wore into battle, IIRC.
All of the things that the PHB says they could do, though, is pretty close to what the legend says, except the traps thingie--I think all of that comes from Conan--so if you change the flavor, I wouldn't change the mechanics much. The con and str bonuses fit right in, as does the will save, representing that they had little to no concern for their safety while raging.
To make things more interesting, you might increase their speed for each x berserker levels gained, but only while raging. Damage and hitpoint bonuses are inherent in str and con bonuses, but you might increase damage and reduce defense a bit more, again, while raging.
I'm probably re-hashing stuff you already know, so I'll go.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Most of the replies have been on the Sorcerer side of thing, so I'll give the Barbarian side.
IMC, we also believe that "Barbarian" is more of a culture than a class. But, that's not the same thing as removing the class. In effect, we converted the Barbarian class (which we renamed to "Berserker") into one that simply centers around tapping into your "primal nature" for combat. It's an inherently chaotic process, hence the alignment limitation.
Effectively, it's a fighting style instead of a culture; "civilized" people can choose to fight this way. In fact, we basically removed certain PrC (like the Dwarven Defender) and simply built their abilities into the class. Several of the OA classes went as well; basically, anything where you enter a stance/trance/rage for extra bonuses was fair game.
We also ditched the trap sense, since it's such a minor thing. What we did instead was allowed each character to build his "Trance" (rage) ability up in a custom way. I've posted the full system on this board before, although I don't have time to search for it at the moment. This system could reproduce the PHB rage, if that's what you wanted, but there are plenty of other options.
One flavor detail is that most people identify their specific trance with some sort of animal that has similar abilities, which often appears to them in a sort of "vision quest" they take when entering the class. In an oriental setting, this leads to the "two-fisted monkey style!" type of names, while in a primitive society, you get "spirit guides" or totem animals.
IMC, we also believe that "Barbarian" is more of a culture than a class. But, that's not the same thing as removing the class. In effect, we converted the Barbarian class (which we renamed to "Berserker") into one that simply centers around tapping into your "primal nature" for combat. It's an inherently chaotic process, hence the alignment limitation.
Effectively, it's a fighting style instead of a culture; "civilized" people can choose to fight this way. In fact, we basically removed certain PrC (like the Dwarven Defender) and simply built their abilities into the class. Several of the OA classes went as well; basically, anything where you enter a stance/trance/rage for extra bonuses was fair game.
We also ditched the trap sense, since it's such a minor thing. What we did instead was allowed each character to build his "Trance" (rage) ability up in a custom way. I've posted the full system on this board before, although I don't have time to search for it at the moment. This system could reproduce the PHB rage, if that's what you wanted, but there are plenty of other options.
One flavor detail is that most people identify their specific trance with some sort of animal that has similar abilities, which often appears to them in a sort of "vision quest" they take when entering the class. In an oriental setting, this leads to the "two-fisted monkey style!" type of names, while in a primitive society, you get "spirit guides" or totem animals.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
evilbob said:Crafting weapons and armor to then enchant is a fairly good use of the skill. Crafting constructs also needs lots of high-level craft skills. Never seen anyone else actually use the skills. Archers? Arrows are a jillion for 1g.
Good call on the Golems. Didn't really pay attention to their prereqs before.
Arrows are cheap, but only if you can buy them. Sometimes you run out when you're lost in the woods... of Carceri!
evilbob said:
Yeah, kinda. But what I'm trying to encourage is a broader base of skills for everyone. So I don't really mind if Wizards have greater opportunity to buy stuff cross-class. In the Core rules, there's not much benefit for a spellcaster to have particularly high skill ranks -- some of the supplemental spells (listening lorecall, I think?) might be problematic, but even then, I don't think it's unbalancing.
Basically, what Knowledge skills get you is not all that powerful, but it can be useful, and it makes the players feel good.
Cheers, -- N
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