D&D 5E Chaos Gifts...

great ideas...I guess ultimately most NPCs wanting chaos gifts are somewhat insane....will muse on this

Indeed, but were they insane so they sought chaos gift, or were they regular people that became insane because they were corrupted by chaos (and in their mind, they are not insane but visionary and enlightened)?

If you decide it's the former, then the "trade off" can be negative : the seeker will not think rationally in the first place. If you decide it's the latter, the more chaos gift you get, the more unhinged you are... So you can have some people starting by saying "OK, I can cast Enlarge Person, that's perfectly natural... Here is a ritual that can make me permanently Enlarged, that would be great... there is nothing problematic with it, well, the ritual require that I eat the heart of a chaotic creature, easy peasy.... (-2 WIS)" then "OMG, my villagers don't understand the benefits, but there is a group of bandits that will soon raze the village, our defenders must become stronger, let's all perform the ritual, after all, I can attest there is no drawback to it and I've been Enlarged for months now (-2 WIS)"... and at the end of the line, you have a group of villagers all Enlarged, super-strong, with scales on top of their skins and three eyes... all raving madmen.

It can work both ways, depending on the theme you want to put forward in your campaign. To me, having only insane people seeking chaos is problematic because insane people aren't responsible of what happen... They need more help than punishment, and there are very few insane people in the first place. Having a seductive chaos where NPCs can "rationally" start walking the slippery slope saying "it's not dangerous" or "I'll overcome the danger" fuels my creativity better for designing villains.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
Law ≠ laws

5e: "Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes."

It's not equal, but laws are lawful, a mark of lawfulness.

The assumption of legalism and predictability is why D&D keeps get confusing about alignment.
If "laws" protect personal freedoms, it is NG.
A unique personal code − ones own way of life − is Chaotic individualism.

3e: "Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability." A personal code makes someone predictable => Lawful.
3e: "Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility." A personal code is not flexible and adaptable, and it negates even the individual's freedom, so it's clearly not chaotic.

Law ≠ crime
Chaos ≠ order

Huh ? Did I say anything of the kind ?

Coupling the terms Law and Chaos together is a misnomer. It causes confusion.
If "legitimate authority" interferes with "personal wellbeing", then legitimate authority is the problem.
Law and Chaos are strictly ethical neutral and can be used for either Good or Evil.

Honestly, these are all very bizarre statements to me, but I strongly disagree with the last one. In particular:
  • Law, in particular in the form of laws, social structure and authority can be used for good and evil, you can have just laws who protect people and ensure their happiness, or you can have unjust laws who favor the powerful and help them crush the downtrodden.
  • Chaos, in particular in the form of freedom and disorder can be used for both good and evil, you can free people from tyranny and oppression, or you can just use it for anarchy where the strongest thrive and make the weak suffer.
Lawful Good is a group activity to help a disadvantaged group.

It can be, but it's not the only possibility.

Chaotic Good is a personal activity to help a disadvantaged person.

Not necessarily once more, it can be to free a group from structures and oppression so that they regain their individual freedom and happiness.

Heh. Perhaps you are very Chaotic and assume it is normal?

Actually, I think that, like most people in the western world, I am extremely lawful. I very rarely break laws or social conventions, I am in line with the European view on freedom which is that it stops when it infringes on someone else's freedom, I like group activities like D&D, etc.

Which does not prevent me from playing extremely chaotic individuals in D&D, wanting to tear down social structure, actually, I've just created a bard for a new campaign which is exactly that way. But I also like Lawful neutral, they make great heroes and terrifying villains.

Me too. When the alignment is disambiguated, clear and practicable, it is useful and convenient.

Yep, and the above just goes to show that it's not that easy, since there can be many opinions, for example you and I are not aligned. That being said, most people at our tables are aligned, and there is enough of a consensus that it's never a real problem to us in general.

That being said, some people at our tables really fail at playing well some alignments, it's a struggle for them as they don't really understand them.

I am glad 5e keeps alignment narrative and avoids mechanics.

On that we agree, first on the fact that when there are mechanics, it can be seen as a straightjacket or at least some control, second on the fact that the freedom to roleplay should be limited to not being a wangrod, and finally I think that in general the fewer mechanics, the better, which is something that overall 5e did well with.

Alignment belongs in the Personality Section of the Character Sheet, along with Ideal, Flaw, and Bond.

100% agreement. :)
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
It’s questions like this that makes me use Warhammer. The Chaos gods are active forces corrupting people. The people are also desperate, scared, and in need. A plague spreads to a town and so a few people, out of desperation, turn to Nurgle, the Plague God, for help. They are spared death, but they are transformed into plague-carriers and sent off to infect other towns in exchange for the gift of continued life.

Some worshippers of Chaos are insane, some are made insane by worshipping Chaos. Some are desperate, some think they can use Chaos to achieve their own goals, some are in the wrong place at the wrong time and corrupted, and some just want to watch the world burn.

Despite Law and Chaos being mistakenly used as stand ins for good and evil, they’re not. Warhammer slips in this regard, too, but does a decent attempt at it. Gods of magic, gods of disease, gods of change, gods of pleasure, gods of violence, and gods of blood. Their “power derives from the darker emotions and deepest psychological drives of the various intelligent species.” It’s not that they’re evil. They’re externalizations of our wild and chaotic side.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
It’s questions like this that makes me use Warhammer. The Chaos gods are active forces corrupting people. The people are also desperate, scared, and in need. A plague spreads to a town and so a few people, out of desperation, turn to Nurgle, the Plague God, for help. They are spared death, but they are transformed into plague-carriers and sent off to infect other towns in exchange for the gift of continued life.

Runequest/Glorantha does this extremely well with Mallia, the goddess of disease, and as Runequest is very well done about worship, it's clear how it works both in story and technically and it's perfectly aligned. Possibly the best supplement ever, Cults of Terror, shows this very well, it's always been one my favourite bits of writing:

Hahlgrim traced the tip of his dagger along a crack in the tabletop. “First we must weaken the Chaos close at hand,” he said. “Bolthor’s people are healthy, yet their Chalana Arroy priestesses are paupers. I suspect that the minions of the Mother of Disease are here, though her priests might stand within spear-thrust of us and we would not know it.”
We all glanced around the sleepy inn. “Ketil, you prepare a party of only the healthiest men, and guard old Torvald the Healer. Seek with him the work of Mallia—he will know the signs.”
Ketil departed, taking with him Oddi the Keen, Hahlgrim’s brother. Hahlgrim replaced the dagger in its oiled sheath, and we left also.
We gathered the peasants of the area before him. They were a sorry lot, exhausted, and with fear-haunted eyes.
Hahlgrim related his history and origin. “In my land,” he said, “the people do not tolerate the slow death, for we know the power of the Healing Mother and uphold her. You must foreswear your sacrifices to Mallia. Rely upon the Healers.” The crowd had been shuffling, as uncouth peasants will, until he spoke Mallia’s name. Then they fell as silent as stone.
“Easy for you to say,” scowled an old hag at last, “but for us there is life to be lost and life to be gained; why should we forsake one who keeps her filthy word, for the
White Goddess, who seems weaker?” And many nodded at this, yet without passion; the pride of these farmers had been hobbled.
Hahlgrim studied the hag. Her wares were baskets, and under his gaze she shrank a little behind them, as though they were a wall which could dim the blaze of his
eyes.
“It is the duty of the old to speak wisdom,” he replied, “not fear,” and she shrank back a little further. “What worth are your offerings, Basket Woman, when broos hobble past your doors with plague dripping from spear points? Your prayers and offerings strengthen the broos, and Ralzakark their king fattens his folk on your power!”
Not a few in the crowd made signs to ward off that King of the Broos, of fearful Dorastor.
“You speak that name lightly, O mighty Lord from Far Away,” the old woman said sorrowfully. “Whom would you have us strengthen?” She paused. “It may be there is
little difference between the kick of a broo and the kick of a nobleman.”
“So it might seem, yet I will show you differently. Hear me: each who trades for a spell from Chalana Arroy will receive a small pig from my temple, or its equal value in
barley or beer. From my own purse will I in addition pay for each spell you gain from the priestess of the White Goddess, whether one or many, nor will I demand you use
of these great cures. All this is yours if you promise never again to worship Mallia, and that I swear by the mighty Air itself!
The crowd gasped at his gifts, and so they were gifts, for never in all their lives could these poor pay back half of what Hahlgrim would give them that day.
“My gracious lord,” the old woman said, trembling, “may all the mercies of the gods be yours for your promise. Forgive me that I spoke harshly,” and Hahlgrim did there
forgive her.
“This is more than our own king, Burpey Bolthor, ever would swear. I see truly why you displease him, and know why your people wait upon your word,” said a burly youth, and the crowd came near. Three places of festering plague were found. Hahlgrim gave orders for their removal, then called for wine. I write this description that all may know of his great generosity and believe it, for even Ketil could not understand at first the gifts of our lord to these humbled people.
“Giving farmers gold?” he cried. “How should anyone give a thousandth of that for the promise of a peasant?”
“There is a time for sacrifices,” replied Hahlgrim, studying the sweep of the valley beyond. “I have no need of gold if what I cherish grows freely and proudly.”
Hahlgrim left soon thereafter, to seek a shaman in the wilds who could protect the farmers permanently. To let Ketil learn humility and charity, he ordered him to administer the giving of the gold to a hundred whining farmers. While Ketil counted gold and swore, I played the flute outside, in the warmth of the afternoon.

And the rest of the saga, used to illustrate the fight against the gods of chaos, and the treachery is just as great. I really would like to play that campaign again. And again...

X2.jpg
X1.jpg
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
5e: "Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes."
Yes. The above design error is what keeps on causing the D&D alignments to get fubarred.

Rather:

Lawful ≠ literal laws

Lawful = group

Chaotic = individual

True Neutral can also have "laws", where the group defends individual rights.

Chaotic Neutral can also have "laws" that are a "personal code".



Extremely Chaotic creatures do what they want. But creatures normally dont want to do random stupid things. A Chaotic creature is a person, has desires, and behaves purposefully. Their behavior is meaningful, often predictable. They just arent "team players". They are "lone wolves".



There is progress. 5e does understand that many tribal cultures are Lawful (group identity).
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Caution:

To portray non-urban cultures as chaotic and evil, "primitive" and subhuman, is part of reallife racist thinking.

It is important to understand what a shaman is, instead of abusing the term.

x1-jpg.146114
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Yes. The above design error is what keeps on causing the D&D alignments to get fubarred.

It's not a design error, the fact that it does not mean what you want it to mean shows that you are the one in error about this.

Lawful ≠ literal laws

Once more, no one said that, just that laws are inherently lawful and that edicting and following them is a lawful trait.

Lawful = group
Chaotic = individual

No, this is just your personal interpretation, which is only partially supported by the game design, there are other factors which are just as important. For example, while AD&D says "Law generally supports the group as more important than the individual, while chaos promotes the individual over the group.", this comes after "That is, law dictates that order and organization is necessary and desirable, while chaos holds to the opposite view." It also says "his view of the cosmos holds that absolute freedom is necessary. Whether the individual exercising such freedom chooses to do good or evil is of no concern. After all, life itself is law and order, so death is a desirable end. Therefore, life can only be justified as a tool by which order is combatted, and in the end it too will pass into entropy."

So just as I agree that the literal laws do not equate Law, the game does not do the equations that you have above, it's an over simplistic view that leaves aside all the epic view of Law and Chaos that the game certainly defends.

The 3e definition of chaos is certainly not in line with yours "“Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them." Nothing here about the individual vs. the group.

Whereas the 3e definition of Law is also clear: “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closemindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should."

True Neutral can also have "laws", where the group defends individual rights.
Chaotic Neutral can also have "laws" that are a "personal code".

Again, just your personal interpretation, repeating it again and again will not make it true in the face of all the description of Law and Chaos in D&D through the editions.

Extremely Chaotic creatures do what they want. But creatures normally dont want to do random stupid things. A Chaotic creature is a person, has desires, and behaves purposefully. Their behavior is meaningful, often predictable. They just arent "team players". They are "lone wolves".

Again, just your interpretation. On the contrary, chaotic creatures, while not purely random (because that would be stupid), just follow their whims which can indeed make them impredictable.

There is progress. 5e does understand that many tribal cultures are Lawful (group identity).

Again, just a personal interpretation of yours.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
It's not a design error, the fact that it does not mean what you want it to mean shows that you are the one in error about this.

The design error (as if a "personal" code is Lawful rather than Chaotic) is the CAUSE of self-contradictions and confusions.

It is the design that is faulty here.

The design flaw even led to racist stereotypes. Because cultures that dont have imperial urban "laws" were by definition "chaotic", uncivilized, impulsive, and by implication less than human.

Equating Law with "laws" is a logical error. But also an ethical problem.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
To portray non-urban cultures as chaotic and evil, "primitive" and subhuman, is part of reallife racist thinking.

Oh yes, please point me to whoever on earth identifies themselves as a Broo and who is offended by Broos being chaotic and disgusting. sigh

My god, can't you please know what you are talking about before being self-righteous like that ? Shaman are extremely respected in Glorantha in general, I could point you straight to the Biturian Varosh example which shows baboon shaman as worthy of great respect despite being as inhuman as broos, and even more tribal and "non-urban". The above image is probably as much a Mallia Priest as a Shaman anyway, and invoking a disease spirit.

It is that attitude that really detracts from what should be, at heart, a good fight, when you lash at out at anything that you think might offend someone else, just on principle, without thinking, without knowing what it is about, just to be heard and seen. Just leave fantasy alone.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The design error (as if a "personal" code is Lawful rather than Chaotic) is the CAUSE of self-contradictions and many confusions.

It is the design that is faulty here.

Yes, sure, people like you not even reading the books (and therefore not even understanding what the design is) are certainly credible when saying it's faulty. As usual, you do not bring a single proof of what you are saying, and misunderstand even two-sentences paragraphs in your self-righteous quest for recognition.

Honestly, I tried to be understanding and friendly with you but the above (and that other post) just shows that you have no idea what you are speaking about.

Stop trying to push your ideas and your agenda on us, whether on what chaos is, or on what a species is, you are being proven wrong every single time and end up wasting our time.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Oh yes, please point me to whoever on earth identifies themselves as a Broo and who is offended by Broos being chaotic and disgusting. sigh

My god, can't you please know what you are talking about before being self-righteous like that ? Shaman are extremely respected in Glorantha in general, I could point you straight to the Biturian Varosh example which shows baboon shaman as worthy of great respect despite being as inhuman as broos, and even more tribal and "non-urban". The above image is probably as much a Mallia Priest as a Shaman anyway, and invoking a disease spirit.

It is that attitude that really detracts from what should be, at heart, a good fight, when you lash at out at anything that you think might offend someone else, just on principle, without thinking, without knowing what it is about, just to be heard and seen. Just leave fantasy alone.

That picture sure looks like a derogatory demonizing stereotype of an African animist witchdoctor.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
That picture sure looks like a derogatory demonizing stereotype of an African animist witchdoctor.

It only looks that way because you have a twisted mind that seeks "evil" in every single thing presented to you, looking for a reason to criticise it and declare a self-righteous crusade. And of course, africans have horns and fur or clear skin. sigh

And of course, it's primitive, a large part of Glorantha is primitive, and a lot of the main campaigns deal with the brave barbarian tribes fighting against the evil civilised and urban empire. So again, how does this demonise the barbarians when in fact the corruption of Chaos is brought by the evil civilisation of the red goddess?...

You should really move past the "look like", you know, instead of being offended by default, maybe ask some questions rather than coming down every single time with your "holy truth"...
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
It only looks that way because you have a twisted mind that seeks "evil" in every single thing presented to you, looking for a reason to criticise it and declare a self-righteous crusade. And of course, africans have horns and fur or clear skin. sigh

And of course, it's primitive, a large part of Glorantha is primitive, and a lot of the main campaigns deal with the brave barbarian tribes fighting against the evil civilised and urban empire. So again, how does this demonise the barbarians when in fact the corruption of Chaos is brought by the evil civilisation of the red goddess?...

You should really move past the "look like", you know, instead of being offended by default, maybe ask some questions rather than coming down every single time with your "holy truth"...
It is more that I admire reallife animists, and notice when popculture misrepresents animism and even demonizes it.

By the way, the term "primitive" is derogatory in English, and fell out of use in academic jargon decades ago, along with "savage".
 


Yaarel

Mind Mage
There are literally dozens of other threads specifically about alignment. Maybe take this tangent to one of those.

Point taken.

But to be fair, a thread called "Chaos Gifts" seems to invite clarification about what does "chaos" mean, and what kinds of gifts should correlate it.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Where a Chaotic creature is individual-identity oriented, perhaps one of the Gifts makes them resistant to Charm?

Compare elf Charm resistance and Rogue Slippery Mind.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
It only looks that way because you have a twisted mind that seeks "evil" in every single thing presented to you..

Mod Note:
Don't make it personal. Address the logic of the post. Do not ascribe that logic to character flaws you want to assign to the poster.

Because, simply put, that's insulting. So stop doing it, in this thread, or elsewhere. Thanks.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
It is more that I admire reallife animists, and notice when popculture misrepresents animism and even demonizes it.

And if you had cared to do a little research, you would have found that the dear departed Greg Stafford who started all that and wrote all that cosmology was actually a shaman in real life: "Francis Gregory Stafford (February 9, 1948 – October 10, 2018), usually known as Greg Stafford, was an American game designer, publisher, and practitioner of shamanism."

But no, rather than researching a bit, rather than saying that you didn't know and politely asking for more information, rather than assuming that there might be good reasons to love that world, that setting, that book and that picture, you post a big "Caution" on the picture on a game and a world that just supports your views and that you know nothing about.

As usual, criticism without the slightest hint of thought or knowledge.

By the way, the term "primitive" is derogatory in English, and fell out of use in academic jargon decades ago, along with "savage".

YOU WERE THE ONE WHO USED IT FIRST, SO YOU WERE THE ONE WHO WAS FIRST USING IT IN A DEMEANING WAY WITH THAT PICTURE !!!!
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Properly, shamanism refers to animism.

While strict animism is nontheistic, there are specific indigenous cultures who blend animism and monotheism (imageless Great Spirit created all beings) or who blend animism and polytheism (certain nature beings demand worship from other nature beings).

Popculture shamanism, sometimes called neoshamanism, draws inspiration from indigenous cultures but is nonidentical with them.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
It really doesnt matter how an inworld fiction explains and justifies a reallife racist hatespeech trope. It still remains a reallife racist hatespeech trope.
 

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