Character Level / World Power - Comparison

[Evilhalfling]

My campaign is similar to S'mon's in that

3rd PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

9th PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

12th PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

NPCs use a slightly different scale, as most are built with lower stats, and less money for personal equipment.
1st-2nd NPC mostly apprentices, new recruits, or assistants
3rd-5th NPC Journyemen/small town crafters, merchants,and vetrens
6th-9th NPC craftmasters, merchant lords, and guard captains
10th-12th famous specialists, the very old, important people in cities
13th+ Rulers, Patriarchs of each god, Heads of kingdom wide guilds

at about 10th lvl plus adventures slow down, things that actually challanege this level of power become more rare. The last time PCs reached this level they were saddled with lots of responsibities, land holding, building groves and political intrigue. They were responsible for creating one kingdom while almost starting a civil war in a second. I also have one or two NPC groups of this status, and they too shake kingdoms with thier (infrequent) adventures.

I also disagree with 20th lvl commoners, they top out at 10th lvl - I adjust the DMG demographics by rolling the levels, then removing the top commoner (if over 9th)
My world is lower level in scope, because I have only 2 metropolisis and only a handful of large cities, and the size of the base of operations has twice been a large town. One small country lacked anyone capable of casting raise dead.

 

[Silveras]

I really can't see the usefulness in making level-by-level pronouncements of a character's influence or renown. Those things shouldn't be class-based. I'd say that a 20th level rogue might be either a well-known champion of the people, or a complete unknown, depending on the player's choices.

At any point, the characters can achieve wider renown simply by behaving heroically before a number of people. In even a high-magic setting, word-of-mouth is the only real determiner of those things: talk of the town, bard tributes, local broadsheets. Also, the nature of the PCs relationship with political powers or the people determines their influence, for better or worse.

I can't see those things as functions of levels, only of story.

Actually, I am starting a new campaign that will be using the Reputation variant from Unearthed Arcana. Adventures are worth 0, 1/2, or 1 "point" of Reputation (most traditional "explore and loot" scenarios are 0); level advancement is worth 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5. Bards alone get 1/2, Commoners and Warriors get 1/5. Most others are 1/3 or 1/4. There are a couple of feats that boost or suppress your Reputation. I like it, and it makes a good mechanic to measure how well-known the PCs are.

 

[LurkerFreak]

Hi, I am trying to understand other people's expectations of what character advancement means in terms of world power. It seems that the campaigns I played in with previous editions advanced more slowly and what might be considered "mid-level" now was high level then. I know that the 3rd edition rules can handle higher level play more easily than previous games, but the games I play in now seem to advance so quickly that the mechanical power level of the PC's seems to outstrip their (my) assumed power in the campaign world. I know I prefer the old way, but many people prefer the newer style of advancement.

Below is my own understanding of how character levels match up with PC's power within the world. Ideally PC's would advance a level every 1 or 2 adventures.

1st) PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

5th) PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

10th) PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

15th) The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

20th) The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

So, I am trying to understand the new expectations of players and DM's under the new ruleset. How do these power levels match up in your game?

Last campaign I ran
1st) Squishy Goober, no one knows you.
5th) Adventurer. Well known locally
10th) Hero. Recognised in most towns and cities.
15th) Legend. Severe hero worship happens. The outer planes are your battlefield.
20th) Godly. You travel the planes without effort or fear. Inter-planar reputation.
21st +) We hunt quasi-deities for fun and profit.

Then again, it was a bit high powered and montey haul tha one.

 

[howandwhy99]

Part of it is the new "all things balanced" mentality in 3rd Edition.

In 1st/2nd, spellcasters (Magic-Users/Wizards/Mages) began the game with few spells (Clerics did not even get spells until 2nd level, in 1st Edition); the low-levels were the domain of the combat professionals, who had many more hit points and better armor. At the same time, NPCs were "0-level", physically as weak as a 1st level Wizard - and that was as good as they got, really.

I agree with you about 0-level characters. It's nice to be able to give different abilities to the lower level "grunts", but after about 3rd level or so, wouldn't these folks be the vital enemies in a game?

1st level PCs were already standouts on that scale, and just got better as time went by. Physically, their abilities leaped quickly until levels 9-11, the "Name" levels; Figher-types especially went from being 2-3 "times" as good as a typical longshoreman (0-level, 3.5 +0 Con bonus hp, THACO 20 compared to 1st level, 5.5+1 Con bonus hp, THAC0 20, compared to 5th level, 27.5+5 Con Bonus, THAC0 16). After that, their resilience (hp) grew at a constant pace. Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers always gained combat "skill", in the form of To Hit numbers, at a rate of 1 per level. Spellcasters, though, can be seen to have "sped up" their effectiveness by gaining access to ever-higher levels of spells over their careers (levels 1-20).

Ok, enough history.

3rd Edition is a complete re-tooling of the game. It is not terribly meaningful to compare advancement rates and other aspects of 3rd Edition to 1st/2nd. It is like comparing modern automobiles to the steam-driven early models. True, both are automobiles, and bear a strong similarity in terms of the simple driver's approach: I start it, get in, and drive to where I want to go. Or, I get in, start it, and drive to where I want to go.

Others have complained about the advancement rate. Others have also adjusted it, by reducing the XP to 1/2 what the table says (or some other fraction). The point is, once you start playing, it is your game to adjust to suit your preferences.

I understand that the rules of the game have fundamentally changed, it just seems certain assumptions about how the game is played have also changed. (or at least become less flexible under the new rules) For instance, many monsters are now too powerful to face at the levels they once were. Plus, magic-users seem to be advancing in spell power based on old 1-20 level advancements and therefore gain powerful magic before they are seen as being powerful-in-the-world. In my eyes, these changes seem to have resulted in a number of (perhaps?) unforeseen consequences, like high powered campaign worlds where most every NPC has exceptional abilities.

I mentioned above that one adventure per level is my own preference for advancement. Success at an adventure/mission would convince others to invest more in the PC's (training, equipment, etc.), and result in their progression.

FWIW, I also think the current edition makes "hero-rank achievements" come later.

1st-3rd: apprentices just starting out
4th-6th: Professionals, beginning to make a reputation
7th-9th: Accomplished professionals, recognized by their peers.
10th-12th: Consulted by the powerful.
13th-15th: Significiant authorities in their fields, well-known professionals whose services are in demand
16th-20th: Well-known heroes
21st+: Epic

Note that I don't tie "what" they do into "when" they do it. PCs can be minor landholding nobles at 1st level. They may find it harder to rule effectively, but they can. They can also start exploring the planes as early as they want to (and can find the means).

Yes, you're right. I am not really looking for any hard and fast rules of when and how a PC might "crown themselves king" or anything. A 1st level sorceror could be king as well as a 20th level one. It's just that one would be struggling to control their small kingdom (left only to the skill of the player to make wise choices), while the other ruled half a continent as their personal domain (the other half easily kept in check due to the PC's vast magical superiority).

 

[howandwhy99]

I really can't see the usefulness in making level-by-level pronouncements of a character's influence or renown. Those things shouldn't be class-based. I'd say that a 20th level rogue might be either a well-known champion of the people, or a complete unknown, depending on the player's choices.

At any point, the characters can achieve wider renown simply by behaving heroically before a number of people. In even a high-magic setting, word-of-mouth is the only real determiner of those things: talk of the town, bard tributes, local broadsheets. Also, the nature of the PCs relationship with political powers or the people determines their influence, for better or worse.

I can't see those things as functions of levels, only of story.

I find it useful to understand what my fellow players expect from the game. What I mean by "world power" might better be illustrated by how high NPCs equivalent in power have risen in the world. It is not a character's reputation or political influence. While it is certainly possible that a 20th level druid is hiding in a nearby forest unknown to the world, it would seem to me to be highly unlikely. If you want them as a common story element, that's up to you. Knowing that you expect it helps us both.

 

[The Serge]

1st Level: Unknowns, but typically people who are slightly to well above average than the typical person in a field. Thus, while there are smart people out there, a would-be wizard would be considered a near genius; while there are competent swordspeople out there, the would-be fighter would be better than the typical foot soldier and so on.

5th level: The PC has reached a degree of recognitition within his town or within an area equivalent to a town in size (if within a large city) relative to his field of interest. Thus, in a town or hamlet, the PC would be regarded as an expert or at least highly competent generally speaking while in a city, only those familiar with his field (like others within the field or those who work with the field on occasion) would regard him as highly competent. He has an established reputation and has probably made some important allies and potentially dangerous foes.

9th level: The character has reached a degree of great success within a town or is well known (generally speaking) in a small city. The character is on par with a mid-level noble in terms of his importance and is probably known to high ranking nobles and people in authority. He has made a lot of enemies and allies and access to resources well beyond other people.

15th level: The character is well regarded regionally. He is a celebrity in large cities and his name is known across large tracks of land. He has doubtlessly drawn the attention of folks of other mortal races and has powerful allies and equally powerful foes. He can easily rule a kingdom if he desires. Stories have long since (12th level) been established about his exploits and are part of the vernacular of the kingdom and parts beyond.

20th level: The character is known across the continent. Kings fear and/or respect his words and actions. He has drawn the attention of powerful extraplanar beings, including gods. He is a living legend and his place in history is assured. His actions greatly affect the world at large and he is probably capable of ruling continent. He certainly has great allies and terrible foes and deals with issues and material far beyond the ken of most mortals.

21st+: The character is a myth in the making. He has wrestled demon lords and dukes of Hell. He has outsmarted demigods. He has cast spells that have changed the course of history. He has become a proxy to his god. His name is known in the Planes and many beings are aware of him and watch his continued rise with great interest.

Generally speaking, I'd like to think that most characters age considerably as they progress in levels. While this doesn't work out due to the manner in which 3ed is played, ideally a 1st level character ought to be in his very late teens and early 20s. A 5th level character ought to be in his mid 20s. A 10th level character ought to be in his early to mid 30s and so on. Of course, if one looks at myths and legends, age isn't always so progressive. Beings like Perseus were quite young (but were also demigods).

 

[Grodd JoJoJo]

"I find it useful to understand what my fellow players expect from the game. What I mean by "world power" might better be illustrated by how high NPCs equivalent in power have risen in the world. It is not a character's reputation or political influence. While it is certainly possible that a 20th level druid is hiding in a nearby forest unknown to the world, it would seem to me to be highly unlikely. If you want them as a common story element, that's up to you. Knowing that you expect it helps us both." - howandwhy99

I'm not suggesting that it's not useful, per se, if you're speaking only of power level. However, some DMs and players seem to expect that it's a hard and fast rule, as opposed to overt or covert effect on the world. I'm speaking solely of the epic characters that are permitted to run riot over a campaign, and I doubt many of us haven't seen just that, whether it's in games we've played or merely heard about.

I can't count the number of times some NOVICE player tried to enter one of my campaigns with his character from some supposed other DM - always unbalanced and godlike. Naturally, I either turn them away or explain that they have to start a new one, like everyone else.

And to Silveras, I actually do like the Reputation rules, because they're scaled to reflect just what sort of challenges the PCs have taken on, and how many people saw them at the time. I don't know if I'll be using it for a while, but it isn't impossible.

 

[Nellisir]

My party was 14th level when I ended the game, and if Kings & Queens knew their names, it was only from rude jokes and "what terror have they unleashed now?" accounts.

1st) PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

7th) PC's are real world heroes who have completed a number of adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

15th) PC's are famous across a number of kingdoms, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

20th) The PC's wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

25th-30th) The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

Ultimately I decided that people in power, IMC, tend to be powerful people. There are other 20th level characters. The PCs are not unique.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[JoeBlank]

How do these power levels match up in your game?

As you know, the power levels in my current game are more along the lines of what many have mentioned, and what you have come to expect from 3.x. That is, despite being 12th+ level the PCs are still relative unknowns, have yet to make names for themselves, and frequently encounter others more powerful than they are of whom they have never heard. And advancement is fast, about a level per two sessions, or more.

Below is my own understanding of how character levels match up with PC's power within the world. Ideally PC's would advance a level every 1 or 2 adventures.

1st) PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

5th) PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

10th) PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

15th) The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

20th) The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

My other game is played primarily online, with a core group of friends who have gamed together for over 20 years. We play over email, on OpenRPG or WebRPG, and have the rare live session despite being spread across the country. We started a couple months after the release of 3e. This campaign matches your description above.

The PCs are currently 5th-7th level, and they are THE heroes of the known world. One of them has acquired an estate from a evil noble that we exposed, and has a great deal of influence in the city. A retired PC is now an NPC member of the Select, a sort of ruling body in the city as the royal family is in shambles. He is 5th or 6th level. There have been many PC deaths, and two near TPKs. Only one fallen PC has been raised.

The PCs are currently roaming away from the main city, and approaching your level 10 description, where they are famous across the continent. They should be working in concert with Kings soon, as they just found a prince who has been missing the entire campaign, and are bringing him home to take his place as King.

howandwhy99, the more I read about your musings on the game the more I want to convince you to take the DMs chair.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

1st-3rd: apprentices just starting out
4th-6th: Professionals, beginning to make a reputation
7th-9th: Accomplished professionals, recognized by their peers.
10th-12th: Consulted by the powerful.
13th-15th: Significiant authorities in their fields, well-known professionals whose services are in demand
16th-20th: Well-known heroes
21st+: Epic

This feels about right to me, and is what I've been (unconciously) striving for in my games.