Character Level / World Power - Comparison

[Silveras]

I agree with you about 0-level characters. It's nice to be able to give different abilities to the lower level "grunts", but after about 3rd level or so, wouldn't these folks be the vital enemies in a game?

In a rationally designed, internally coherent setting ? Sure. But, in addition to the "balance all things" mantra, another was "back to the dungeon". The idea that the vast majority of campaigns consist of little more than dungeon-visits-with-occasional-trips-to-town colored a lot of the design. Settlements are primarily "supply dumps" for dungeon crawls, and their functions in normal society are secondary. Likewise, the pricing structures are, like in 1st/2nd Edition, based on the presumption that adventurers spend a good deal more than residents for the same goods. In 1st/2nd Edition, it was plainly stated that the costs were designed around the gold rush idea; the prices in 3rd Edition lack that explicit statement, but they seem to be holding true to it.

In 1st Edition, you did not advance a monster, you just made a new one. There were no "extra tough" Goblins; instead, there were Hobgoblins. That made sense in terms of grading the challenges on a dungeon level, but it was not terribly satisfying. Players graduated from fighting Kobolds to Goblins to Orcs to Hobgoblins. Often, once you moved on, you never moved back. 2nd Edition started the same way, with tougher monster races pushing around weaker ones. Late in 2nd Edition, the idea of Monsters as characters appeared. It was, in some ways, a welcome change.

In 3rd Edition, the monster advancement rules make that unnecessary. However, I expect most campaigns play the monsters straight from the MM. Advancement is seen as a tool for creating "Bosses" only. Certainly, the time required to select Feats and spell skills for a "stock 5th level Orc Fighter" is prohibitive. However, exactly that is what makes a "believable" world work; just as there are 5th level adventurers, there are 5th level Orcs to challenge them.

I understand that the rules of the game have fundamentally changed, it just seems certain assumptions about how the game is played have also changed. (or at least become less flexible under the new rules) For instance, many monsters are now too powerful to face at the levels they once were. Plus, magic-users seem to be advancing in spell power based on old 1-20 level advancements and therefore gain powerful magic before they are seen as being powerful-in-the-world. In my eyes, these changes seem to have resulted in a number of (perhaps?) unforeseen consequences, like high powered campaign worlds where most every NPC has exceptional abilities.

Well, the third thing that the design team had in mind was that most campaigns ran to about 20th level and then stopped. A significant subset went on, but the majority were played over the course of a year and capped at 20th level.

Thus, the Core rules established a 1-20 curve and cap, pretty much. You *could* advance beyond 20th level, using the then-forthcoming Epic rules, but the design team set 20th level as the "end" of normal play.

I don't know if the consequences were as much "unanticipated" as considered irrelevant. The people who would be bothered enough by such oddities are the same ones, generally, as will feel comfortable taking steps to fix them. For the "casual" player (who fits the 1-year, level 1-20, dungeon-delving campaign model), there are probably few questions that come up.

I mentioned above that one adventure per level is my own preference for advancement. Success at an adventure/mission would convince others to invest more in the PC's (training, equipment, etc.), and result in their progression.

That's certainly a reasonable rate of progression. Really, any way of doing it so that the players are having fun is fine. Personally, I would like to climb fairly quickly from levels 1-7 (say), then spend a nice long time advancing after that.

Yes, you're right. I am not really looking for any hard and fast rules of when and how a PC might "crown themselves king" or anything. A 1st level sorceror could be king as well as a 20th level one. It's just that one would be struggling to control their small kingdom (left only to the skill of the player to make wise choices), while the other ruled half a continent as their personal domain (the other half easily kept in check due to the PC's vast magical superiority).

That was why I liked the Birthright rules. They did a *fantastic* job of making rulership independent of character level. A 0-level merchant could be just about as effective a ruler as a 10th level Fighter. The ability to work realm-based magic was still tied to character level, but just about all other functions were level-independent.

 

[ashockney]

b]1st)[/b] PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential.

5th) PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status.

10th) PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power.

15th) The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes.

20th) The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers.

So, I am trying to understand the new expectations of players and DM's under the new ruleset. How do these power levels match up in your game?

Here's my thoughts from the last 3 campaigns I've run from 1st - 20th (with one campaign to 32nd):

PC's are at best known by a few dozen people for having great potential:
3rd - 5th Level

Adventurers (I added this category):
5th - 9th Level

PC's are real world heroes who have completed several adventures, are relatively well known in their land, and possibly hold noble status:
9th - 12th level

(By 9th level, they've got some good stuff under their belt, but so do thousands of others in the world. The adventures from 9th - 12th really start to get into some cool stuff getting accomplished, but still not dealing DIRECTLY with the big boys. In the FR campaigns, they would be dealing with mayors/constables/magisters but not power brokers like Senior Harpers/Kings/Queens)

PC's are famous across the continent, their accomplishments are being sung across the land, and they work in concert with Kings, Queens, and others in power:
16th - 20th level

(I have the hardest time here with "famous across the continent". Particulalry in the FR, you've got to do some pretty awesome stuff to be that famous. I would think you'd have to complete the adventures from 12th - 16th level (some of the TOUGHEST levels in my opinions), in order to accomplish this level of notoriety, and to get access to the "inner circle" among a handful of the power brokers in the world. Even at this level, they may JUST be brokering their way into the "decision-making" role of a small or mid level organization in a realm (certainly not world-spanning org).)


The PC's are famous across the known world, they wield great influence over world events, and they are making a name for themselves in other planes:
24th - 28th level

(This is the big-time, and was a real sweet spot for gaming. The low level epic stuff, when you can literally throw ANYTHING you can think of at the party (non-epic), and they now have the resources and power to deal with it. The party will definitely be in a major power-broker role, and truly dealing in concert with the "epic" baddies such as Elminster, Khelben, Simbul, Fzoul, in the FR. Making a name in other planes...not necessary, but certainly possible by this time, if that's where your campaign takes you.)

The PC's operate across and have great influence in several worlds, they are outside normal laws, and deal mainly with extraplanar creatures and others with world spanning powers. They are the pawns of demigods and divine powers:
34th - 38th level

(Although the campaign didn't really make it to the 34th+ level, the events and epic creatures were not really at the described "power level" by 32nd level in the FR campaign I was running. As a result, I'd have to aim this a little higher. Keeping in mind that there were several "chosen" in the party by that time, they were not dealing exclusively with extraplanar creatures, nor were they the pawns/divine agents. They were not even, necessarily, "outside normal law" as they were routinely coming into conflict with the fact that their actions could have overwhelming consequences on the politics and events of the Forgotten Realms. )

 

[clockworkjoe]

In my games, a character's level is totally independent of his world power. A level 20 character could be a drunken has been barbarian with a broken magical axe spending his last gold pieces on ale and whores before he finally dies cold in a gutter while a level 1 wizard who saves a kingdom by outsmarting the demon lord in a riddle contest is a mover and shaker.

If you look at D&D demographics, a city of 50,000 people or so will probably have at least 5 or 6 near epic characters in it. I think a character's true power is measured by the depth of his thinking not by his level. A strategic thinker usually wins against higher level but simpler minded opponents.

 

[S'mon]

>>Plus, magic-users seem to be advancing in spell power based on old 1-20 level advancements and therefore gain powerful magic before they are seen as being powerful-in-the-world.<<

I agree with this, and 3e has greatly exacerbated the 'magical artillery' problem - a "low level" Wizard or Sorcerer with Fly & Fireball can now destroy an army of similarly low-level Warriors & Fighters. Fireball was powerful in 1e-2e, but Wizards could only cast a small number per day, now Sorcerers & Wizards can cast a huge number of fireballs at mid-level (say 10th) - all the 3rd+ slots can be used for fireballs! *eek*
In the old days it needed a Wand of Fireballs to do this...

One thing I'd like to see in 4e is the abandonment of the sacred cow artillery spells; no other RPG game has these 40' radius fireballs castable by low or low-to-medium power magic-users. They're a holdover from when a 5th level Magic-User was supposed to be a rare & scary thing, when 'low' level was 1-3, medium 4-6, high 7-9, and 10+ was Very High to godlike.

 

[random user]

If you are looking for more datapoints in my campaign, at least for humans:

Levels 1-3: pretty much a dime a dozen. You're not really special on the whole. Some people see potential in you, but then there are lots others if you aren't around.

Level 4: considered a "veteren." People begin to take you seriously, as you are going to be competent, especially if you are younger (which shows you have a lot of potential) . Still, there are a lot of competent people around though, and no one is going to remember you.

Level 5-8: considered "seasoned." You've seen a bit of the world and have some experience under your belt. Normal people won't dismiss you outright, though you'll have no chance of getting to see nobility still. People feel safer when you are around them (asuming you are good).

Level 9: considered "expert." The waves of people are thinning now, though there are still a bunch of 9+ people that exist. The captain of the guard of a large town or small city will be around this level. You probably won't find a level 9 or higher cleric or mage in most small cities (or smaller). There are still enough adventurers level 9 or higher, though, that at level 9, you can't expect that you'll always be higher than whom you meet.

Level 12: considered "(um.. I can't use the word I want here, basically insert a word that means "Don't mess with me, you'll be unhappy if you try")" There are perhaps 100 or less of you in each country that are this high level. A captain of the guard in a large city will probably be around this level. At this level, you will attract the attention of nobility, though not as high as the king. The king may vaguely know you, but you're not rare enough to not be interchangable with some other (use that same word).

Level 15. There are perhaps 10-20 people in each country that are of this caliber. The king will know you by now, though he still commands enough resources that he won't fear you, but he will definately listen if you have something to say.

Level 18. You would be hard pressed to find an human NPC level 18 or higher. Those that achieve this level generally are going to be dealing with other worlds and matters that go along with that. The belar (a semi-demi-god race in my world) start to notice you. Kings won't want to make you unhappy, if possible.

Level 21. You're epic. No humans in my campaign world have achieved this status.

 

[Kalanyr]

Fireballs are LESS deadly now, the 5th level warrior has 5d8+5*Con Mod (say a 10 con for on average 22.5 hp (in 2e these guys would have been 0 level mooks with 1d6 hp) ) in hit points.

The 5th level Wizard (With 19 Int even) has 2 fireballs a day each of which does 5d6 Reflex for half (DC 17) the fighter has a save of +1 so he'll fail both and take an average of 35 damage, which I'll point out is all the wizards top level damaging spells, after this he's back to doing 3d4+3 to 1 target and this wizard has rather good stats compared to the mooks who I'm assuming have 10's and 11s for stats (if the mook had a 14 con they'd still be alive after the wizard basically did his major damage for the day).

In 2e the fireball would have wiped out the (average warrior) 0 level mook even if he'd saved on both in 3e they won't wipe out the (average warrior who has a Con Bonus and probably more than 1 level in class).

Removing the direct damage spells doesn't leave an arcane spellcaster much to do to help in combat that to be frank divine casters can't do as well or better.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Fireballs are LESS deadly now, the 5th level warrior has 5d8+5*Con Mod (say a 10 con for on average 22.5 hp (in 2e these guys would have been 0 level mooks with 1d6 hp) ) in hit points.

I disagree. You may have armies of 5th-level warriors in your world, but I see the average conscript as a 1st-level commoner, the average soldier, mercenary, or raider as a 1st-level warrior, and an elite soldier (full-time soldiers in a country known for martial prowess such as Sparta) as a 1st-level fighter. Knights either aristocrats or fighters. Some officers around 3-4 level, most leaders no more than 6 or 7.
Only a very rare and elite force would have the average soldier as high as 5th level. *Maybe* the Sardaukar from Dune, but can't think of any other force off the top of my head where the average foot soldier would be tougher than an ogre.
But, I confess, I'd still have a preference for using gnolls or bugbears for a tougher rank-and-file rather than giving lots of levels to ordinary soldiers. I know as a DM I can just give XP away as I wish, but I find it hard to believe that there has been enough slaughter to raise entire armies to level 5 without wiping out the populations of the world.

Removing the direct damage spells doesn't leave an arcane spellcaster much to do to help in combat that to be frank divine casters can't do as well or better.

I don't know, wizards can forego evocation as a school and still do okay... but that should be a choice by the player. Maybe you could say that evocation counts as two forbidden schools by itself, thereby encouraging spellcasters to explore the other options rather than being the walking artillery. But I also support removing all the offensive damaging spells from the cleric list (except for inflict wounds and the evil spells), as it used to be.

Scribe Scroll also does a lot to negate "maximum spells per day" as a check on a wizard's power. At least, it should if the player is willing to make the investment in using it. If he's saved up his scrolls, a wizard can be devastating against an army for that one battle.

 

[Kalanyr]

Actually in my main campaign the average soldier is more like a 3rd level Warrior.

Heh, fine then lets go with 1st level commoners, the situation is still precisely the same as in previous editions (ie a swathe of the army dies but looking at the DMG demographics characters with high levels in (N)PC class are hecka less rare (so armies of entirely first level commoners are probably as implausable as the devestation an unknown wizard can cause to an army of commoners) than they were in 2e the commoness of higher powered individuals also reduces the ability of fireball to threaten (this is especially obvious at high levels (a 20th level wizard with a fireball in 2e did 10d6 a good chunk of a 20th level fighters HP (9d10+9*Con Mod+33) but in 3e the fighter has 20d10+20*Con mod, the relative power of spellcasters in general decreases between editions unless you regularly have situations where your parties task is to wipe out low level groups), if a wizard can only get off a couple of major booms a day I'm not seeing the problem, a fighter with similar stats is going to be doing 2d6+9ish (about 4d6 on average) on every hit all day (as opposed to 5d6 on a couple per day, the wizards advantag is that he can catch a lot of people (making him a good mook killer) if whoever you're facing has more than 35 hit points (and the BBEG of a 5th level adventure probably does (unless its another arcane spellcaster and then you have the initiative fight) its the fighter who's going to get the glory of slaying him (at least until 11th+ when arcane death magic turns up). Arcane spellcasters are excellent at wiping out mooks and destroying armies but in the standard D&D paradigm that doesn't matter a lot, its taking down the BBEG that gets people glory. (Admittedly if you don't do it that way in your campaign and horde fights are more common the wizard will shine more, but the fighter with an optimal whirlwind attack or great cleave is going to be only slightly worse. )

(Sorry getting off track here, and yeah Wizards can forgo evocation and still do okay but the cleric probably does better and scribe scroll really isn't a cure all (scribe scroll costs XP and gold which reduces levels (which reduces the power of spells) and magic items (which increase personal power (HP,spells per day, DCs, immunities, saves). A wizard who makes enough scrolls of fireball to wipe out an army isn't going to be of much use against an encounter of a CR equal to his level with full XP. The one scroll a round thing is going to ensure that, its all about tradeoffs I suppose. )

 

[S'mon]

Typical situation IMC would be 12th level Sorcerer & his pals vs army of a few thousand orcs. Sorcerers cast Fly, fly up and fireball thousands of orcs (including leaders) into oblivion.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Typical situation IMC would be 12th level Sorcerer & his pals vs army of a few thousand orcs. Sorcerers cast Fly, fly up and fireball thousands of orcs (including leaders) into oblivion.

Hehe, of course, in our game, this is countered by the 15 Level Cleric of Grummish leading the orcs casting dispel on the fly, and the group of 5 7th level fighter orcs with bows peppering you with arrows. Then, the fireballs thrown at you while you are falling by the 12th level sorcerer "lieutenant" of the orcs.

We've learned to FEAR orcs.

Then again, our characters are 12th level now in our game, and our quest is pretty "epic" in scope, we are trying to save the continent from being conquered by an evil ruler. However, by my last estimation, no one really knows who we are, despite me TRYING to spread our reputation. We think that the emperor (the evil ruler) may have heard of us, as we keep destroying his patrols, and some of his soldiers. However, we haven't left anyone alive to give him descriptions of us so that we can walk around without fear.

Other than that, we own a small tract of land with a castle on it within one small country. We have our own Heraldry and our own adventuring party name, though.

Majoru Oakheart