Character Motivation: My Local Experiences (Warning Spoilers and possible Alignment discussion)

[Tyranthraxus]

Hi,

First Ill get my prideful statement out of the way. For some time, Ive been running AL in 2 locations. Its taken a bit out of me (I also run Wed Encounters) and Ive been looking to recruit another Expeditions DM. I finally have found one I hope and we both ran Shackles of Blood last Saturday (myself for 7 players and he for 6: Now that I think about it .. probably not the best scenario to give to a brand new AL DM)

Now I had a Paladin on my table who was LG. He asked another guy (who had a Sailor background) what his alignment was after the player described their character who wanted to kill all the other pirates who had abandoned him

'Oh Im Chaotic Neutral'
'So am I'
. Fully 5/7 characters were CN. I had a NG Cleric/Wizard and the Paladin who was LG.

5 of them. Is it the go to alignment for murder hobos? Is it the alignment people pick because 'I couldnt pick NE and being Good is boring..'. Im not sure. It did have me a little worried however.

What I noticed was that these 5 seemed to hang back a bit and let the good people do the social interaction. One of my players is notorious for saying 'Im only here to hit things (he plays a Barbarian). So at this point Im unsure if a full party of CN would continue in after the Tinfellows or in this case were being pushed by the Cleric and Paladin.

Now Im not here to start an alignment debate. I know that one person will surely start one below in the replies. I really just wanted to relate my experience of what I feel is happening locally.

( I generally dont ask for alignment, and I only occasionally get the pcs to describe their character and name they want to be called and anything 'strange' about their character. (ie someone is red skinned ) etc. )

 

[Pauper]

In my experience, Chaotic Neutral does tend to be the alignment taken by 'murder-hobos', but that doesn't mean every CN character is one. The proof is in the playing, though, and based on your description, it does sound like the CN characters were only there to kill things and take their stuff.

As for alignment, I'm finding that the way 5E handles alignment for players is more akin to 'philosophy' than 'personality' -- your alignment informs the way you think the world is rather than straight-jacketing you into a way of responding to that world. Some creatures are embodiments of those philosophies, and thus their personalities are interchangable with the tenets of philosophy, but PCs are more fluid and can thus act in ways that are incompatible with their philosophy because their personality drives them that way -- so a CN barbarian might still defend party members in an argument, since she might see them as part of her 'surrogate tribe' and thus worth defending.

In my experience, many players choose CN as an alignment because they find it the least 'limiting' of the alignments, from back when alignment was more explicitly tied to a character's personality and motivations (CG is a close second, for players who don't mind being 'good guys' in general, but still want to occasionally misbehave). Ask for your PCs' personality traits and find ways to make them more relevant to the adventure at hand then their alignment, and you may find those players loosening up their beliefs about alignment.

--
Pauper

 

[Steve_MND]

Alignment in D&D (and other roleplaying games, honestly) have always been a bit of a sore spot, because many people think your alignment shouldn't dictate your actions, but rather it would be your actions which dictate your alignment. I think that's one of the reasons why 5e largely has relegated alignment to flavor more than mechanics, compared to earlier editions. But, as mentioned, CN is easily the 'loosest' of the alignments to explain away a lot of possible actions.

 

[kalani]

I agree - some people believe Chaotic Neutral = "Do whatever I want without caring about the consequences". They couldn't be more wrong, as that mentality is Chaotic Evil.

Neutrality as it applies to D&D means one of two things: You either strive to maintain a balance, or you don't let issues of morality (and/or ethics) cloud your decision making.

A CN person isn't uncaring about innocents, nor are they murderous. They place INDIVIDUALITY above morality and are at their heart either self-centered, hedonistic, or highly individualistic. Yes, extreme examples are focused toward spreading chaos wherever they go, however they must be mindful that chaos does not lead to undue suffering - as that becomes Chaotic Evil. Many CN characters are hedonistic, and care little beyond their own entertainment and satisfaction. They certainly don't go out of their way to harm others, but if someone gets hurt in the pursuit of their enjoyment - oh well, it was their own fault.

Finding enjoyment in the suffering of others is an EVIL act. CN characters that enjoy the suffering of others won't remain CN for long. They will eventually end up NE or CE (depending on their personalities).

My CN character is a hedonistic trickster at heart. He prides himself on finding the humor in each situation, and his primary motivation is FUN. He adventures because of the EXCITEMENT it brings, and is always looking for something NEW to do/see. The most malicious thing he does is use prestidigitation to turn someone's hair green, or tie a rude individuals bootlaces together with mage hand​.

He doesn't think about others much, but if put in a situation between harming an innocent or helping them - he will almost always choose to help them, if doing so is entertaining. Otherwise, he will simply ignore them and hope that someone else does the boring job of helping them (he is selfish). He isn't motivated by wealth, justice, chaos, mayhem or anything else - he just wants to have a good time. He lives an aristocratic lifestyle, not out of a sense of greed - but out of a sense of hedonism. He throws wild and extravagant parties for the enjoyment of everyone - and everyone is invited (hense the need for an aristocratic lifestyle).

In fact, he has yet to have fun at someone elses expense. Why? Because it is generally easy to find something enjoyable to do without pissing someone else off. Pissing others off usually bites you in the ass, and results in having a less-than-enjoyable time when the consequences of your actions catch up to you (jail time sucks; lynch mobs suck; being run out of town sucks; etc). IOWs - he is mindful that his FUN now does not have UNFUN consequences later.

 

[Tyranthraxus]

It is entirely possible then that I have a share of average roleplayers locally then, because a lot of people seem to equate having fun with doing whatever the hell they want in game.

 

[Steve_MND]

It is entirely possible then that I have a share of average roleplayers locally then, because a lot of people seem to equate having fun with doing whatever the hell they want in game.

Quite possible. The thing a lot of people (players and often DMs as well) miss is that Living Campaigns like AL (and the Pathfinder Society, and Living Greyhawk before them, and Living City before that, etc.,) are a completely different entity than the sort of 'traditional' home campaign you play each Friday night with your college buddies, etc.

It has the obvious similarities, of course, but the approach and structure are so different, it often comes as a great surprise to folks who aren't already familiar with the concept. In a home campaign, if you don't like Frank, for example, you just don't invite him to play with your group. You don't have that luxury with a Organized Play campaign, which needs to be accessible to anyone. In a home campaign, if you want to play something unusual, you can discuss it with your DM, and he can agree to it. You don't have that luxury in an OP campaign, where options and paths are limited. Same thing with striking out in a completely random or off-script direction to whatever's going on, setting up personal quests or side missions for a certain player, and any number of other differences.

Organized Play, by definition, is much more structured, restrictive and compartmentalized than any homebrew campaign might be. Bu this is designed so that in return for that, there is more portability, flexible access and balanced content. And, as a result of that design, it tends to be something that is more easily managed for experienced, mature players (so to speak); most of us I'm sure went through that earlier murder-hobo phase when we were young kids, or just starting off as a roleplayer. Hey, it's fantasy! Let's do fantastical stuff with no consequences! Whee!

The problem here is, tho, that when that same new/young player starts in OP as opposed to a home campaign, they don't have the opportunity to learn and refine themselves quite as well, because the OP system is so much more structured and less forgiving to that sort of behavior. So it should not come as a complete shock that we tend to end up getting a lot of the CN murder-hobo types in OP, because it's less well-suited to weeding those types out, either by social pressure or (preferably) by having them grow out of that phase as a player in a more reactive campaign environment.

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Steve MND: I also have a lot of what Id term Casual Gamers. They turn up because they know there is a game on. They know I will bring extra blank character sheets, that I will have my PHB and minis on me, my maps and blank logsheets. 80 percent of the table do not bring blank logsheets they simply rely on me providing them. Ive got 5-6th level characters who still dont know what their spells do or class abilities because they simply wont buy a PHB, and if mine is tied up 'They will look later' or just not use the power/spell and do something else. Yes there are PHB's for sale but the guy that brings in like 3 burgers plus 2 apple pies from McDonalds every session could probably cut back and save some money for a PHB. I do enjoy the fact that he likes to use my PHB as his grease wipe from his oily hands.

Steve_MND: ACtually what you are describing are Organised Play games of the 90's and Noughties. I actually find AL one of the least restrictive campaigns around, but in a way less structured.

Visualise that we have both Expeditions and Encounters. Seperate but connected entities. Now the AL Admins keep a tight lead on the Expeditions. the Encounters module program however is more.. fluid.

Im going to use a current topic/issue here. We had Out of the Abyss come out very recently with some 'mystery' certs and certain locations that needed.. work from the AL angle. Basically they needed work from the start. Because however the AL Admins more or less get the books at the same time as lets say.. everyone else dealing with those AL issues was not available to be done before the Encounters season started. Which is a problem as it means that groups either have to play with the handbrake on and slow down so they dont hit the potholes or wait until such issues are looked at and responded to.

(This is actually why I stated in a different thread that there needs to be a 'lead time'.. a time period after the book is released but before the Encounters season starts so the issues can be addressed before they even arise. )

 

[Knight_Marshal]

I have always viewed CN as people who do not care about good or evil, only about causing chaos and doing whatever they want, IE...insane.

 

[kalani]

I have always viewed CN as people who do not care about good or evil, only about causing chaos and doing whatever they want, IE...insane.

Doing whatever you want doesn't make you insane - it makes you selfish. Han Solo is a poster child for CN (although he eventually transitions to CG).

The thing with Dnd Alignments is that they can either represent characters who are champions of an alignments principle, or it represents moral or ethical points of view.

CN characters can either be selfish, or champions of pure unadulterated chaos. The latter are more likely to be insane (but even that is not a requirement). Most CN characters are just self-centered (but not evil). They are only motivated by self-interest, but still have limits. Those who believe that the "ends justify the means", or which revel in mayhem, death, and destruction are CE - not CN

A CN character will break the law and will lie, steal, and cheat - but they draw the line at torture, murder, and the harm of innocents. They will only engage in such evil acts if they feel it is absolutely necessary, and will usually opt for a less-violent method of achieving their goals if given enough time.

CN characters won't go out of their way to help the innocent either. Again, I refer you to Han Solo as a very good example of a CN character. You start to see Han questioning his CN alignment in Empire Strikes Back but you don't actually see him starting to shift to CG until Return of the Jedi​.

Champions of Chaos however are very dangerous, as their sole motivation is to spread chaos throughout the multiverse. Ultimately, such characters desire for the entire multiverse to be an endless mass of shifting chaos-stuff (aka. Limbo). Such characters must walk a very fine line however, as uncontrolled destruction and mayhem is not CN but is instead CE. Slaadi are the penultimate champions of Chaos. They believe that: Everything must remain in a state of constant change/motion. Order is anathema to such characters, and they seek to tear down structure in the universe or at the very minimum, make certain that establishments and leaders change frequently (without care for whether the change is good/bad/neutral).

Kendermore (Dragonlance) is a city built on the principles of a CN oligarchy. Champions of Chaos would look favorably upon Kendermore, and its endless succession of leaders (some lasting only several hours) - and its maze of haphazard streets and unfinished buildings (their builders placing them wherever they wish, and rarely finishing the job). Those who are interested in learning more about Kendermore, I recommend reading the novel Kendermore (which goes into more detail than any of the campaign supplements).

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Ive actually started to create a roster of local characters. (I bought myself a nice notebook and each character who plays on one of my tables gets a page

Some fun facts:

2 Characters are LG
78 percent of characters are CN
0 Halflings
1 Gnome (Deep Gnome)
THere are 34 unique characters that have played in my games.