D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

[Mark CMG]

The GM accepted that "The Balrog Times" was a plausible business within the game world. Because the expectation was that if the player came up with a sufficiently entertaining idea that they would do so.

The idea that the world is hardcoded rather than something that exists at the table between the group? That came later. All of you making things up you consider fun.

You've quoted me, not someone else in this thread whose posts you might also take exception to, so please understand that I have in no way said that a world is "hardcoded." A GM can, IMO, improvise whole swaths of a setting on the spot and I do not think that goes against any rules nor changes the fact that a GM is also under no obligation at any time to accept something a player has determined is his right to add to the setting. If, in your example, the GM decided that there was no newspaper in his setting and the player, through his character, had to carry on the bluff and, further, had to also explain how a newspaper worked, then that is the GM's prerogative. A player affects the setting through their character within the restrictions of that character (a 1st level fighter generally can't cast fireball spells, for instance).

What are rules? It was certainly part of the unwritten rules. Or do you think that only that which is in the text counts (in which case oD&D needs Chainmail for starters).

Okay, despite this odd "unwritten rules" approach to a discussion that is essentially about rules, here is where you actually agree with me. I've said time and again that I am discussing how the game rules were written by design and that any given GM can certainly add to those rules or bend them but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the rules. You even quoted me where I said as much. However, you've jumped into this discussion late and seemingly haven't read some of my previous posts, so it's understandable.

Indeed. But story elements are sugar. A story is "an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment." (first definition on google).

Which of that doesn't hold? There's no account, or you don't roleplay for entertainment?

I'm not sure how this poetic tack is actually counter to my point that two things are not the same just because they share common elements.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with story.

I'd say you're talking about what I'd call "Entitled GM Games" (. . .)

I'm going to step away from this portion of your post.

And in Spirit of the Century the GM has explicit veto over Fate Points being spent to make declarations. The same applies in Fate Core. In fact the only RPGs I'm aware of where the GM doesn't have a veto over such things are GMless. The difference is on expectation. Whether the players are expected to contribute and it is expected that the world and setting are shared or whether it's purely owned by the GM. Indeed that's a big part of why games that have GMs have them.

I do not disagree, as I have said in previous posts in this thread, that various storytelling games have different parameters for play and players have different expectations when playing them. I play them myself from time to time, as I have previously posted. I even add some storytelling elements in some RPGs that I run. It feels like you have read a few of my posts in this thread and made some leaps regarding how you think I (and maybe others) play. But this discussion is about the rules and the development of storytelling elements and the eventual advent of storytelling games in earnest. Certainly our own experiences can form some of our opinions about how we feel about those elements emerging but we're really discussing the actuality of what the rules say and how we've come to know them.

 

[billd91]

Well, I find the idea that a GM would ignore the rules text and decide that Streetwise checks also have a prior "GM approval/random roll" clause one of the main "GM railroading over player creativity" things. I've seen it wreck games. I've seen it sour and crush players.

Hey, it says the GM establishes the target roll. That clearly implies that the GM gets to have a say on how likely the PC is to find what they're looking for. No ignoring of rules text is required to make that statement.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You've quoted me, not someone else in this thread whose posts you might also take exception to, so please understand that I have in no way said that a world is "hardcoded." A GM can, IMO, improvise whole swaths of a setting on the spot and I do not think that goes against any rules nor changes the fact that a GM is also under no obligation at any time to accept something a player has determined is his right to add to the setting.

Indeed.

If, in your example, the GM decided that there was no newspaper in his setting and the player, through his character, had to carry on the bluff and, further, had to also explain how a newspaper worked, then that is the GM's prerogative.

And at this point I'd call the GM a jerk, plain and simple.

To put it simply, pretending to be from The Balrog Times would make absolutely no sense in a setting without newspapers. So it's not something the character would have thought of. If the GM were to stop the player and say "You do realise there's no printing press yet so newspapers don't exist?" would work. But to turn a sensible players action into a severely out of character action by keeping obvious facts about the world hidden that the PC would know is a jerk move.

And there is nothing stopping the GM from being a jerk.

A player affects the setting through their character within the restrictions of that character (a 1st level fighter generally can't cast fireball spells, for instance).

That's a minimum.

I'm not sure how this poetic tack is actually counter to my point that two things are not the same just because they share common elements.

Roleplaying is based on adding storytelling elements and a tight perspective to tabletop wargaming.

I do not disagree, as I have said in previous posts in this thread, that various storytelling games have different parameters for play and players have different expectations when playing them.

So do any two RPGs. GURPS is very different from BECMI. And Kobolds Ate My Baby is different again. For that matter, 1e is very different from 2e, is very different from 3.0, is very different from 4e.

But this discussion is about the rules and the development of storytelling elements and the eventual advent of storytelling games in earnest.

Indeed. Which is why I started with Braunstein. And mentioned that storytelling elements and the type of play you see with much looser elements are how oD&D was played at both Gygax's and Arneson's tables.

There was then in the 80s a strong move away from what you call storytelling elements. With the absolute authority of the Storyteller being probably the furthest the hobby moved from empowered players. And a pushback in the late 90s and early 00s with people saying they wanted what V:tM promised and never delivered.

 

[Mark CMG]

How would any of the posters involved in this discussion handle the following situations?

Scenario one:

You're running a Forgotten Realms game (or a setting with identical facets) at a gameday or for all new players in your home or at one of the player's homes. Characters have been created and the group has moved through a town looking for something, let's say specific warm weather gear that isn't on the equipment list in the PH (like a polar bear fur coat), and they've realized they are being chased by thieves or muggers or they suspect possibly worse. They run around a corner while fleeing into an alley and one of the players says, "And in the alley there are some crates. On one of them, Elminster is sitting smoking his pipe and he recognizes me because my uncle worked for him loyally for over a dozen years before dying. I ask him to help us out of this jam." The players at the table turn to you expectantly. How do you handle this.


Scenario two:

Similar setup but it is a Greyhawk game (or nearly identical setting for our purposes). The four players all have one character and you have started them in a tavern for whatever reason, even if you would never normally do that, when a fight breaks out. The players all agree that their characters should flee the tavern and the area. As they exit, one of the players says, "I look over and see a hovercraft. It's a four-seater like the kind I got in another Greyhawk game when exploring near the Barrier Peaks. Since this character I am playing today has a background in engineering, which I knew would come in handy, I tell everyone to jump in and I hot wire the thing so we can take off quickly." One of the other players looks over his character sheet and clears his throat. Two others look at engineer character player smiling enigmatically. The first player speaks again asking, "How fast does this one go?" How do you proceed?

 

[Neonchameleon]

"Dudes, what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?"

 

[Mark CMG]

To put it simply, pretending to be from The Balrog Times would make absolutely no sense in a setting without newspapers. So it's not something the character would have thought of.

Isn't that for the player to decide? Even if there are no newspapers in a setting can't a player introduce the concept as a ruse and explain what they are? Would a GM be forced to deny the player the ability to say whatever he likes in character?

Roleplaying is based on adding storytelling elements and a tight perspective to tabletop wargaming.

In a sense, insofar as the original idea was that players add elements to RPG settings through their characters, the roles they play. The idea was to zoom in, as it were, from handling a wargaming unit to just a single figure (or multiple single figures), metaphorically speaking, and interact with a setting through that one (or those) figure(s).


I don't know that the rest of your post is necessarily in disagreement with what I have posted previously in this thread but I appreciate you discussing some of your experiences to help me understand your perspective, so please don't think I have just ignored the rest of what you wrote.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

How would any of the posters involved in this discussion handle the following situation?

in general my answer "Ok, but with a twist" especially given the idea that it's at a gameday or for all new players in your home or at one of the player's homes. this is a chance to goof off and have some fun. I would probably be less forgiving of the second one in a home ongoing game...

Scenario one:

You're running a Forgotten Realms game (or a setting with identical facets) at a gameday or for all new players in your home or at one of the player's homes. Characters have been created and the group has moved through a town looking for something, let's say specific warm weather gear that isn't on the equipment list in the PH (like a polar bear fur coat), and they've realized they are being chased by thieves or muggers or they suspect possibly worse. They run around a corner while fleeing into an alley and one of the players says, "And in the alley there are some crates. On one of them, Elminster is sitting smoking his pipe and he recognizes me because my uncle worked for him loyally for over a dozen years before dying. I ask him to help us out of this jam." The players at the table turn to you expectantly. How do you handle this.

Well first before I answer, just to be fair, and give full disclosure, I hate Elminster, with a passion. He is the #1 example I give of what is wrong with the FR setting... ok having said that.

My answer is "No, Elminster isn't sitting there, how about we have a non stupid campaign wrecking mary sue setting destroyer instead... how about Phalaris the female 1/2 elf bard level 5 "chosen of Mystra" (in my eyes meaning she has silver fire and sr and that's it) who can play the same role" if the player agrees, then she stands and says "(Insert character name here) what are you running from?" and keep going from there.

Scenario two:

Similar setup but it is a Greyhawk game (or nearly identical setting for our purposes). The four players all have one character and you have started them in a tavern for whatever reason, even if you would never normally do that, when a fight breaks out. The players all agree that their characters should flee the tavern and the area. As they exit, one of the players says, "I look over and see a hovercraft. It's a four-seater like the kind I got in another Greyhawk game when exploring near the Barrier Peaks. Since this character I am playing today has a background in engineering, which I knew would come in handy, I tell everyone to jump in and I hot wire the thing so we can take off quickly." One of the other players looks over his character sheet and clears his throat. Two others look at engineer character player smiling enigmatically. The first player speaks again asking, "How fast does this one go?" How do you proceed?

ok, slightly different, same idea "Sorry, I don't like alien/advance tech laying around like that, how about we put a horse and carriage there instead... wait no, hippogriffs and a winged carriage" then I would totally steal an idea from GTA and run with it.


may I ask how you would handle each?

 

[mcbobbo]

That's why I talked about games. I'm not aware of any position so absurd that there's no one who will support it. There are a few jackass players out there, and I don't deny that. But almost every RPG has a Rule 0. The entire structural apparatus of RPGs is weighted in favour of the GM. And there's no such thing as a Players Rule 0 other than voting with your feet in most games.

I'm not aware of any actual games fitting your Entitled GM situation, either. So that must make both equally non-existent? Not since 1994 or so, anyway.

 

[Mark CMG]

may I ask how you would handle each?

Thanks for answering and just so you know I am not ignoring your request . . .

Since I setup the hypothetical(s), I'm going to hold off on answering how I would handle these situations for a bit. It might seem to some like I am feathering the nest if I jump in too early or become a discussion just about how I would handle it rather than give everyone the same starting point for their own expression.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

by the way bonus sceneros 3

Player comes to anygame I am playing or running in any setting ever with a Kender.

I shout "NO!!!!" at the top of my lungs and refuse to play/run the game with that thing in it...