D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Hussar

Legend
If I may [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91 the difference is that the smuggling ring, in Megatraveller, is presumed to pre-exist. The Player doesn't get to say, "If I succeed on my check, there is a smuggling ring on this planet and I get to infiltrate it." The smuggling ring is already there, and the Streetwise check lets you infiltrate that.

In the first example, in Classic Traveller, the player says, "I want to find illegal guns on this planet. if I succeed on my check, I find illegal guns". The existence of the guns is entirely dependent on the player's roll.

At least, that's how I think Pemberton is reading this. Note, I also have zero experience with the system, so, I'm going by what is being quoted.
 

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Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
In the first example, in Classic Traveller, the player says, "I want to find illegal guns on this planet. if I succeed on my check, I find illegal guns". The existence of the guns is entirely dependent on the player's roll.


That's where you are mistaken, as it is still up to the GM. If he has determined previously that there are no illegal guns on a planet, a player's roll cannot change it, nor can the player force a GM via a roll to allow there to be illegal guns even if the GM hadn't previously decided so, though this might seem egregious. In all likelihood, the GM has tacitly decided there are illegal guns most anywhere and by allowing these rules to be used has also decided the player can have a bit more control over his character's ability to find them. Essentially, what we have here, are a set of rules that have a setting in mind when they were written and assume that the GM has, by adopting the rules, tacitly agreed that the illegal guns (or whatever) exist and can be found some percentage of the time most anywhere.
 

Cyberen

First Post
I have failed my Wis save...

On the top of my mind, I recall having breaked the so called "traditional paradigm" on the other side : as a DM, making decisions for a player (or, as a player, acting as a puppet of the DM), in order to enact the trope of a hero being possessed/dominated/replaced by a monster, without the other players/characters knowing it. Was this gameplay against tradition ?
Also, to make possible/give teeth/have fun with a "Our Base is Under Attack !" scenario, I have sometimes switched side across the screen, so that the invaders experience the heroes' stronghold as if it were a dungeon.
As far as I am concerned, I read the 1e DMG as "Advice as Intended", not RAW. This advice is about having fun roleplaying situations from Fantasy tropes. Some explicit advice is "Engage the characters !" (for instance, when suggesting to introduce rival organisations when a character establishes one), or "Cut the crap !" (for the stronghold location case cited by pemerton, I believe Gygax doesn't think player empowerment, but rather Take 20). The tech of the game gives power to the players almost exclusively via magic... but I think it would be a mistake to reduce the game to its RAW. First, because we know this RAW is simply a picture of the state of the art when it was written. Gary and co were rules tinkerers, as was any 1e DM, and I believe player fiat played an important part at every table where new material was introduced (as in "I want to play a Van Helsing type "). Second, some of the tropes explicitly invoked by the game blur the frontier between the characters and the world : how would you Alice in Wonderland or the Amber saga without Player fiat ? You can have convoluted mechanisms based on the Wish spell... or you invent Fate points. Early D&D was very much a tool box waiting to be expanded. Calling natural expansions "untraditional" seems self defeating at best. Some people claiming any relevant element should be created beforehand seem myopic to the great resilience of the game they love. No, material can be and has been generated on the fly : dungeons, worlds, wounds, or character backstories (especially for a Male Elf delver !) are fluid before they hit the table/get narrated. Depending on your style, you/your table will agree on the level of precision or artistic blur of the description, but I clearly don't see it in the rules.
Tl; dr : my young self would not have allowed the boxes to appear in the alley, because I was ignorant and insecure. It would be a shame to call bigotry tradition.
 
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aramis erak

Legend
Arrrrrggghh.

This has been brought up a couple of times and it really doesn't matter.

The fact that the DM can change the rules does not change the fact that the rules exist in the first place. Of course the DM can change the rules. But, it was brought up earlier that story gaming elements were not part of the rules and had to be added by DM's. Here we have a story gaming element that is being removed by the DM. That doesn't change the fact that it is a story gaming element and that it exists in the rules.

No, you are apparently unable to see the most important element: AD&D has only one rule that matters: "The DM is always right."

There is no other rule of consequence in AD&D 1E. Everything else is, per the DMG, explicitly suggested default options for the DM.

Quite literally, the social contract of Gygaxian Trad is "You, the player, have no rights in game except to leave. In exchange, the DM should be trying to entertain."

Gygax reinforces that in the responses to letters published in Dragon.
 

No, you are apparently unable to see the most important element: AD&D has only one rule that matters: "The DM is always right."

There is no other rule of consequence in AD&D 1E. Everything else is, per the DMG, explicitly suggested default options for the DM.

Quite literally, the social contract of Gygaxian Trad is "You, the player, have no rights in game except to leave. In exchange, the DM should be trying to entertain."

Gygax reinforces that in the responses to letters published in Dragon.

People who honestly believe that need to think what that sounds like before they post/say it... It is literally (The real true meaning) "My way or the highway"
 

pemerton

Legend
That's where you are mistaken, as it is still up to the GM. If he has determined previously that there are no illegal guns on a planet, a player's roll cannot change i

<snip>

what we have here, are a set of rules that have a setting in mind when they were written and assume that the GM has, by adopting the rules, tacitly agreed that the illegal guns (or whatever) exist and can be found some percentage of the time most anywhere.
I agree with the second of these two quoted passages, which means I tend to disagree with the first.
 


pemerton

Legend
AD&D has only one rule that matters: "The DM is always right."

There is no other rule of consequence in AD&D 1E. Everything else is, per the DMG, explicitly suggested default options for the DM.
Like [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], I don't think this is a fair reading of the AD&D rulebooks.

For instance, from pp 7-8 of Gygax's PHB:

This new system provides the Dungeon Master with more and better material from which to devise the campaign miieu, and that in turn means a more interesting and imaginative game for the players. . . .

This game is unlike chess in that the rules are not cut and dried. In many places they are guieines and suggested methods only. . . . Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF AL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMAIGN. Participants in a campaign have no recourse to the publisher, but they do have ultimate recourse - since the most effective protest is withdrawal from the offending campaign. Each campaign is a specially tailored affair. While it is drawn by the referee pon the outlines of the three books which comprise ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, the players add the color and details, so the campaign must ultimately please all participants. It is their unique world.​

Given that the books then go on to present hundreds of pages of rules, mechanically-defined story elements, etc, I don't think the intention is for all of that stuff to be of no consequence.

I think these passages from Gygax's DMG, p 9, reinforce the role of the rules:

Read how and why the system is as it is, follow the parameters, and then cut portions [eg wandering monster rolls, as pe an extended example that fills the bulk of the rest of the paragraph] as needed to maintain excitement. . . . The game is the thing, and certain rules can be distorted or disregarded in favor of play.

Know the game systems, and you will know how and when to take upon yourself the ultimate power. To becomethe final arbiter, rather than the interpreter of the rules, can be a difficult and demanding task . . . [Y]our players expect to play this game, not one made up on the spot. By the same token, they are playing the game the way you, their DM, imagines and creates it. . . . Read and become familiar with the contents of this work and the one written for players, learn your monsters, and spice things up with some pantheons of super-powerful beings. Then put your judging and refereeing ability into the creation of your own personal milieu, and you have donned the mantle of Dungeon Master.​

The long discussion of wandering monsters is interesting, because it highlights which "certain rules" can be distorted and disregarded and which not:

[T]he group [of players] has worked hard to suppy themselves with everything by way of information and equipment [as per the advice on pp 107-9 of the PHB] . . . They are gathered together and eager . . . But lo!, every time you throw the "monster die" a wandering nasty is indicated, and the party's strength is spen trying to fight their way into the area. . . . Expectations have been dashed, and probably interest too, by random chance. Rather than spoil such an otherwise enjoyable time, omit the wandering monsters indicated by the die. No, don't allow the party to kill them easily or escape unnaturally, for that goes contrary to the major precepts of the game.​

It is also interesting to look at p 110, under the heading "Rolling the Dice and Control of the Game":

t is your right [as DM] to conrol the dice at any time and to roll dice for the players. You might wish to do this to kep them from knowing some specific fact. You also might wish to give them an edge in finding a particular clue, eg a secret door that leads to a compex of monsters and treasures that wil be especially entertaining. You do have every right to overrule the dice at any time if there is a particular course of events that you would like to occur. In making such a decision you should never seriously harm the party or a non-player character with your actions. . . .

Now and then a player will die through no fault of his own. . . . [Y]ou do have the right to arbitrate the situation. You can rule that the player, instead of dying, is knocked unconscious, loses a imb, is blinded in one ey or invoke any reasonably severe penalty that still takes into account what the monster has done. It is very demoralizing to the players to lose a cared-for-player-character when they have played well. When they have done something stupid or not taken precautions, then let the dice fall where they may!


I think the general tenor of this is fairly clear. The GM shouldn't fudge the resolution of combat except to mitigate the death of a PC belonging to a player who has played with skill. The GM can fudge certain other action resolution (eg looking for secret doors) when what is really going on is not confict resolution but rather framing the situation - such as the example about finding a secret passage to a fun sub-level. Whereas the clear implication is that if the PCs are fleeing from monsters, and come to a dead end, the GM shouldn't fudge the secret door roll at that point, because the players are meant to be able to handle these conflicts thorugh their own skill and luck (eg use a wand of secret door detection).

Simiarly, when Gygax says that the GM is the final arbiter, I think he mostly has in mind decisions over fictional positioning and framing the situation. The GM gets to set the challenges (including via manipulation of wandering monster dice, secret door dice etc). But the GM is not entitled, for instance, to declare a monster's miss a hit, or to declare a player's hit a miss. That would fall under the "never seriously harm" prohibition.

Even when the GM is given authority to ameliorate player losses, s/he is still obliged to take seriously the monster's success, and to infict some non-fatal penalty commensurate with the monster having won the encounter. (This is the closest that Gygax's rulebooks get to "fail forward", I think.)

Linking this back to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s ideas about early/proto-story-gaming, we see the game evolving from one more like a boardgame or tactical wargame, in which all the framing and content-introduction after the initial situation is handled via randomisation, into one in which the GM takes responsibiity for content-introduction and framing so as to foster and reward skilled and enjoyable play.

It's pretty natural that, as players got involved who weren't that interested in Gygaxian skilled play but who still saw the GM as responsible for supporting enjoyable play, that the GM would be seen as having responsibilities to exercise authority out of different motivations. But many later games, especially in the late 80s through the 90s, were even less clear than Gygax in the passages I've quoted in distinguishing between authority over framing ("situational authority") and authority over content-introduction ("backstory authority") on the one hand, and authority over resolution of conficts ("plot authority").

Hence the trend towards more-or-less explicit illusionism.

I read the 1e DMG as "Advice as Intended", not RAW. This advice is about having fun roleplaying situations from Fantasy tropes. Some explicit advice is "Engage the characters !" (for instance, when suggesting to introduce rival organisations when a character establishes one), or "Cut the crap !" (for the stronghold location case cited by pemerton, I believe Gygax doesn't think player empowerment, but rather Take 20). The tech of the game gives power to the players almost exclusively via magic... but I think it would be a mistake to reduce the game to its RAW. First, because we know this RAW is simply a picture of the state of the art when it was written. Gary and co were rules tinkerers, as was any 1e DM, and I believe player fiat played an important part at every table where new material was introduced (as in "I want to play a Van Helsing type "). Second, some of the tropes explicitly invoked by the game blur the frontier between the characters and the world : how would you Alice in Wonderland or the Amber saga without Player fiat ? You can have convoluted mechanisms based on the Wish spell... or you invent Fate points. Early D&D was very much a tool box waiting to be expanded.
I think this is all correct.

A trend in RPGing that seems to emerge over the course of the 80s is a type of ossification or rigidification. Material that players, in early years, generated as part of their play, becomes treated as the sacrosanct material for others' play. You can even see this in AD&D itself: elements of a spell like fireball, which were clearly generated as GM adjudications in the course of play, get reproduced as rules material for others to apply, rather than instead emphasising the role of the GM in generating such adjudications as part of play (eg via the item saving throw table).

You can also see a trend towards tightening up player authority in favour of expanded GM authority in the contrasting approach to "monsters as characters" in OD&D (yes!) compared to Gygax's DMG (certainly not!). I think there is a similar reversal in relation to the introduction of game elements like classes, weapons, magic items etc.

This seems to be a reaction to players doing things to break the game. And you can see those sorts of concerns in some posts in this thread. But just as there are ways to make fireball adjudication non-arbitrary without requiring the huge increase in spell description length that AD&D involved, so I think there are ways to control player introduction of broken content without simply stamping out player authority altogether.
 
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aramis erak

Legend
People who honestly believe that need to think what that sounds like before they post/say it... It is literally (The real true meaning) "My way or the highway"

Yep, YOU get it.

Yes, it can be toxic.

It's also carte blanche to ignore any and all rules. Later editions don't carry that level of GM fiat.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Since I've been gone a while and this thread has gone quite far without me, let me put my 2 cents in.

I think the game needs a good balance between player power and character power. I think that removing all power from one or the other will cause major problems.

However, I stand firmly in the camp that believes all my original examples were clearly things that SHOULD challenge the players. I understand different DMs will have a slightly different line than others, however.

I think players should decide the strategy and actions of their players. A die roll should never determine WHAT your character does(except in very specific cases like insanity or confusion magic). A die roll should determine how WELL you do what the player has decided their character does. That was my point at the beginning of the thread. The player in question said "Tell me what my character should do. I rolled well." I think that regardless of in game statistics, the inevitable decision for what their character does should be left to the player.

The other issue I first posted about was letting the dice be absolute. The player in question liked to say "I rolled high, you have to give me everything I want." Whether that was an Intimidation check that the player felt should make the thief immediately spill his guts and admit to everything or a Persuasion check to convince an insane king to change his mind. The player felt the dice should solve everything for him. I disagree with this.

As an example from one of the adventures I ran. There's a Dwarf who has been corrupted by magic to make him really paranoid. He sees enemies everywhere. The same magic corrupted half the clan. The Dwarf in question gathered up all the people who were corrupted and formed a new Dwarven city a couple of miles away from the one they originally lived in. All of them carried cursed items that would continually make them fall deeper and deeper into their paranoia and anger(that was the source of the magic). The new Dwarven king was being influenced as well someone who was taking advantage of their paranoia by asking them to do things for them. The original king asked the PCs to convince the leader of the new Dwarven city to come back and live in their homes again.

The PCs went there and the player in question said to the new king "You are being unreasonable, there is nothing to be afraid of. You should put down your cursed weapons, you have no idea how they are affecting you." He then made a good roll(good, not great. I think it was a 15 or something).

I had the Dwarf king rant about how the PCs were obviously trying to trick him into giving up his better weapons so that they could attack and they'd be unable to resist the attack."

The player got angry because "How are we supposed to negotiate with these people? They aren't acting rationally. This is stupid."

So I said "Give me an Insight roll." He got pretty high and I said "The items appear to be making them paranoid."

He said "I know that. That doesn't help me at all. He won't listen to me."

One of the other players said "Wait...I know, I tell the king that the representative that is sitting next to him and asking him to do things is tricking him. She's been lying to him and abusing his trust. She doesn't care about him at all. She wanted him to leave the other Dwarves and to keep the cursed weapons as part of her ploy."

So, I let that argument succeed automatically. The king agreed to have a talk with the old king to negotiate moving back in and getting rid of the weapons.

Now, it's easy to say that I was restricting player choice and railroading the players to come up with the ONE AND ONLY option to convince the king. But, frankly, it was the only real argument that was going to work on a king who was magically paranoid. Sometimes, there really IS only one option. I'd probably also have allowed any other argument to work with a VERY high roll(like 20+). However, I have the most fun when players get rewarded for good ideas that they came up with on their own.

On a related note, since this thread was ALSO kind of just me complaining about one of my players...why stop now.

This same player actually threatened to stop playing D&D entirely earlier this week(something he only said because he was angry. He showed up for our Wednesday D&D Expeditions session). He was playing a Warlock and he made a comment about how everyone got disadvantage against him because he was standing in his Darkness spell. I pointed out to him that it wasn't true. Darkness makes you blind which means you give advantage to everyone who attacks you. They have disadvantage because they can't see you, but that cancels each other out.

He said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This game is dumb if that's the case. I'm standing in darkness and people get no disadvantage to hit me."

I said "Well, technically, they still have to guess which square you are in, so if they don't know then there's a nearly 0 percent chance they hit you. But even if they know what square you're in, it kind of makes sense that the two cancel each other out. They are firing blindly into the darkness but you have no idea the attack is coming so you can't even begin to get out of the way. So, their chance of hitting is about normal again."

He said "No....no, that's stupid. That's extremely dumb. I built my entire character around hiding in the Darkness spell so people would have trouble hitting me. Now I'm going to have to change my character entirely to a different type of warlock just so I can see in darkness so that I can cancel out that penalty. I might as well not play this game any more if this is the kind of stupid thing that happens."

He also tossed a bunch of dice around in anger. The tone doesn't come across well in text but he was REALLY pissed off.

Which just kind of goes to show that the issue I'm dealing with having this player around amount to the fact that the player wants everything to go his way 100% of the time. If I don't rule how he wants me to he gets angry and starts taking a fit.
 

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