D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Basically, they'd settle for nothing less than me saying "The person is obviously mind controlled". I instead like to give hints and let players figure things out on their own.

Interestingly enough, unless Mind Control was a common theme in a campaign, I would have to side with the players on this one. Not that it was appropriate for them to get angry with you as DM, but more from the angle that this concept is not really a possibility in their minds until you give them the paradigm shift of the actual answer. As a general rule, even if an NPC was acting strange, Mind Control would probably be about reason #47 on my list of things that could be happening due to the fact that with almost 40 years of gaming, I do not recall an NPC ever being mind controlled by another NPC. Odd as that sounds (PC by NPC, or NPC by PC, sure). I will have to add this into a future game though. Thanks for that. :cool:
 

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People who honestly believe that need to think what that sounds like before they post/say it... It is literally (The real true meaning) "My way or the highway"

If taken to extremes.

I think that rule #1 still holds in nearly every game, it's just that it is not overtly pulled out and dusted off a lot. There is no need for that as a general rule.
 

Interestingly enough, unless Mind Control was a common theme in a campaign, I would have to side with the players on this one.

interestingly enough I played in a game where there was an abolth/mind flayer alliance that we (PCs) didn't know about. It was pretty messed up, we didn't know who was or wasn't controlled. We thought the DM was messing with us, It was only after 2 PCs almost quite that the GM got a little more easy going on clues... we never did get that campaigned finished
 

On a related note, since this thread was ALSO kind of just me complaining about one of my players...why stop now.

This same player actually threatened to stop playing D&D entirely earlier this week(something he only said because he was angry. He showed up for our Wednesday D&D Expeditions session). He was playing a Warlock and he made a comment about how everyone got disadvantage against him because he was standing in his Darkness spell. I pointed out to him that it wasn't true. Darkness makes you blind which means you give advantage to everyone who attacks you. They have disadvantage because they can't see you, but that cancels each other out.

He said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This game is dumb if that's the case. I'm standing in darkness and people get no disadvantage to hit me."

I said "Well, technically, they still have to guess which square you are in, so if they don't know then there's a nearly 0 percent chance they hit you. But even if they know what square you're in, it kind of makes sense that the two cancel each other out. They are firing blindly into the darkness but you have no idea the attack is coming so you can't even begin to get out of the way. So, their chance of hitting is about normal again."

He said "No....no, that's stupid. That's extremely dumb. I built my entire character around hiding in the Darkness spell so people would have trouble hitting me. Now I'm going to have to change my character entirely to a different type of warlock just so I can see in darkness so that I can cancel out that penalty. I might as well not play this game any more if this is the kind of stupid thing that happens."

He also tossed a bunch of dice around in anger. The tone doesn't come across well in text but he was REALLY pissed off.

Which just kind of goes to show that the issue I'm dealing with having this player around amount to the fact that the player wants everything to go his way 100% of the time. If I don't rule how he wants me to he gets angry and starts taking a fit.

I disagree with your player's attitude.

I agree with his theory on Darkness.

Although by RAW, your ruling is correct, this is one of the house rules in our game (and we only have 5 rules). RAW is somewhat incomplete here (for stealth, hiding, invisibility, vision, blindness, etc.).

As an example, NPC up in a tree 50 feet away shooting arrows at PCs. PC spell caster casts Wall of Fog around PCs to protect them. The spell does little since the PCs are not hidden. In order to move away from their original squares, the PCs would (theoretically) need to stealth. Theoretically, they are making noise otherwise (or not based on DM fiat, hence, incomplete rules). So, the archer shoots at where a given PC was (or where he hears a PC moving to, or not). He is shooting into an area he cannot see, but his chances of hitting are exactly the same unless the DM rules that the PCs can move away from their original squares without making noise and without needing a stealth roll.

So, different DMs can easily rule different here.


Now, let's take the same example, but one of the PCs is in a square behind the Fog Cloud. The archer has disadvantage in this case because the PC can now see. It doesn't matter that the PC really would not be able to see the attack coming (an arrow moving 5 feet from fog to non-fog takes about 0.03 seconds to get there, way faster than any human could ever react), it just matters that the PC can now see.


Oh and PCs in the Fog Cloud shooting at the archer? They have disadvantage, but can fire at his exact square because they saw it previously. The fact that they are totally blind and shouldn't know north from south at all does not prevent them from precisely pinpointing his position.


Now, many DMs like the flexibility in these rules. Personally, I think that they are incomplete and can easily cause problems like the one you experienced with your player. A Fog Cloud or Darkness spell SHOULD protect PCs from ranged attacks. They do not, hence, these particular rules are a bit stupid (or minimally, weak). IMO. B-)
 

interestingly enough I played in a game where there was an abolth/mind flayer alliance that we (PCs) didn't know about. It was pretty messed up, we didn't know who was or wasn't controlled. We thought the DM was messing with us, It was only after 2 PCs almost quite that the GM got a little more easy going on clues... we never did get that campaigned finished

Not surprising.
 

This same player actually threatened to stop playing D&D entirely earlier this week(something he only said because he was angry. He showed up for our Wednesday D&D Expeditions session). He was playing a Warlock and he made a comment about how everyone got disadvantage against him because he was standing in his Darkness spell. I pointed out to him that it wasn't true. Darkness makes you blind which means you give advantage to everyone who attacks you. They have disadvantage because they can't see you, but that cancels each other out.

He said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This game is dumb if that's the case. I'm standing in darkness and people get no disadvantage to hit me."

I said "Well, technically, they still have to guess which square you are in, so if they don't know then there's a nearly 0 percent chance they hit you. But even if they know what square you're in, it kind of makes sense that the two cancel each other out. They are firing blindly into the darkness but you have no idea the attack is coming so you can't even begin to get out of the way. So, their chance of hitting is about normal again."
Assuming for the nonce that nobody involved has blindfighting or anything similar, in this case I rather have to agree with your player; and I think you and he have combined to find a minor flaw in 5e's rules.

The way the 5e adv-disadv rules work is that when they cancel out everything is as it was before, nice and simple and easy to follow. However, in this case "as it was before" is a very unrealistic option; and the old way of simply assingning a flat minus to hit makes more sense. Yes, the adv-disadv cancel out so nobody has advantage over anybody, but everybody fighting in the darkness should be equally worse at it compared to fighting in a lit area. But for some reason 5e doesn't like flat minuses.

Of course, if you have fumbles the chance of fumbling while fighting blind should increase rather dramatically. :)

Lan-"confused why someone would build a character around the notion of hiding in darkness"-efan
 

interestingly enough I played in a game where there was an abolth/mind flayer alliance that we (PCs) didn't know about. It was pretty messed up, we didn't know who was or wasn't controlled. We thought the DM was messing with us, It was only after 2 PCs almost quite that the GM got a little more easy going on clues... we never did get that campaigned finished
Just like Battlestar Galactica, where you don't know who the deep-cover Cylons are until way along in the series. I like it!

Lan-"have you ever thought of picking up that campaign yourself and running it out?"-efan
 

Assuming for the nonce that nobody involved has blindfighting or anything similar, in this case I rather have to agree with your player; and I think you and he have combined to find a minor flaw in 5e's rules.

The way the 5e adv-disadv rules work is that when they cancel out everything is as it was before, nice and simple and easy to follow. However, in this case "as it was before" is a very unrealistic option; and the old way of simply assingning a flat minus to hit makes more sense. Yes, the adv-disadv cancel out so nobody has advantage over anybody, but everybody fighting in the darkness should be equally worse at it compared to fighting in a lit area. But for some reason 5e doesn't like flat minuses.

Of course, if you have fumbles the chance of fumbling while fighting blind should increase rather dramatically. :)

Lan-"confused why someone would build a character around the notion of hiding in darkness"-efan

I agree that there's a weird kink in the rules here. Plunging everyone into the blind condition, assuming they're all able to target the right square, enables them to fight just about as effectively as when they can all see. That really doesn't make much sense. I think a more realistic outcome would seriously disadvantage attacks without completely neutralizing that disadvantage.

But I also agree that I think there's a conceptual flaw in building a character around the hiding in a ball of darkness all the time. It should make offense against you harder, but at the cost of making your own offense just as impotent. And that strikes me as pretty useless.
 

Interestingly enough, unless Mind Control was a common theme in a campaign, I would have to side with the players on this one. Not that it was appropriate for them to get angry with you as DM, but more from the angle that this concept is not really a possibility in their minds until you give them the paradigm shift of the actual answer. As a general rule, even if an NPC was acting strange, Mind Control would probably be about reason #47 on my list of things that could be happening due to the fact that with almost 40 years of gaming, I do not recall an NPC ever being mind controlled by another NPC. Odd as that sounds (PC by NPC, or NPC by PC, sure). I will have to add this into a future game though. Thanks for that. :cool:
I don't know what you mean by common. But it came up at least 5 times in the past couple of months.

Plus, I think that mind control/charm/brainwashing is a fairly common theme in fantasy and sci-fi. Succubus charm men and drain their will, mind flayers permanently change people's personalities, wizards can make you believe what they want to, vampires turn you into their slaves, sirens lure you to die, and so on.

I'm really not sure what would make someone put a mental block in that prevented them from ever expecting an NPC to do it to another NPC. Heck, a large number of adventures with puzzles that I've played in have involved a plot thread involving some sort of mind control as the reason why certain information is not readily available. Or at least had an NPC who was under an illusion, secretly a spy, or being blackmailed or coerced.

There are quite a few reasons why NPCs won't tell you what you want to know, is my point. And I believe if an NPC has real leverage over another NPC that a good Persuasion of Intimidate check isn't going to suddenly make NPCs open up. During the same adventure the player in question would spend most of his time complaining that members of the thieves guild wouldn't admit to being members when he made good Intimidate checks. The thieves guild kills anyone who admits to being a member. So, they all had good reason to stay quiet.
 

But I also agree that I think there's a conceptual flaw in building a character around the hiding in a ball of darkness all the time. It should make offense against you harder, but at the cost of making your own offense just as impotent. And that strikes me as pretty useless.
Yeah, this player has been known to search for loopholes in the rules and abuse them whenever possible. In this case, I heard him mention that being able to do part of your move, attack, then take the rest of your move was stupid and would cause problems.

That's what his character was attempting to do. He would leave the darkness, attack the enemies, then walk back into the darkness. He was counting on the fact that the DM would never go out of their way to ready actions to attack him.
 

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