Character Power Levels 1e/2e vs. 3.5e

[Sundragon2012]

I was attempting to explain to a friend who scoffed at the 20th level pre-epic cap by telling him that with the utilization of feats characters in 3.5e are far more powerful than their previous edition counterparts.

I know that a 10th level 3.5e fighter (sans magic of any kind) is signifigantly more powerful than his 1e/2e counterpart (sans magic of any kind) but what would be the equivalent level of the 10th level 3.5e character in a 1e or 2e campaign? Would he be 2, 3, 4+ levels higher in regards to pure death dealing potential if placed into a previous edition campaign?


Chris

 

[Henry]

I couldn't even MAKE such a comparison, because each system uses different scales. Just crit hits alone make a jump between systems, much less 20 hit dice versus 9.

 

[Sundragon2012]

I know the translation in regards to power is really impossible to pin down, but I was just wondering if anyone had a rough estimate.


Chris

 

[Quasqueton]

I was attempting to explain to a friend who scoffed at the 20th level pre-epic cap

Actually, this comment intrigues me more than the edition comparison. Why did he "scoff"?

Quasqueton

 

[Numion]

Of course, you probably shouldn't compare the characters to each other, but the characters to the monsters and opposition they'd be facing. 1e dragons are wusses compared top 3e dragons too.

In that sense, a group of 12th levels could kill a great wyrm red dragon in 1e, but in 3e it takes probably 20th level dudes. If you convert a world from 1e to 3e .. the characters, level per level, have become weaker, since in the new edition they can't go looking for great wyrm dragons, whereas they could before.

 

[MerricB]

The best* way is to compare attack bonuses.

A 10th level fighter in AD&D... let's assume a +2 sword, double weapon specialisation, and an 18/00 strength. That gives him the equivalent of a +18 attack bonus.

A 10th level fighter in D&D 3e... let's assume a +2 sword, greater weapon focus, and a 22 Str. That gives him the equivalent of a +20 attack bonus.

The other thing is that AD&D 10th level fighters could be *very* different based on stat rolls and magic items. A 10th level fighter could also have a +1 sword, no spec, and a 16 Str. That makes a +11 attack bonus.

From +11 to +16. That's quite a range.

Your D&D 3e fighter might be reduced to 18 Str, +1 sword, weapon focus. That's +16 to attack.

So +16 to +20 (3e) vs. +11 to +18 (AD&D). AD&D will tend to the lower values.

So, perhaps a 25% power boost.

(*: Best in that the Attack/Armour comparison is one of the main things to consider when converting 1e adventures to 3e).

Cheers!

 

[rogueattorney]

To be honest, I haven't played anywhere near enough 3e at mid- to high-levels to make a real call on power levels there. At lower levels, the power differences between OOP D&D characters and 3e D&D characters is pretty stark, especially when looking from OD&D or pre-UA AD&D1 >> 3e. Late 1e and 2e's wizard specialists, kits, weapon specialization, and so on make up for a lot of the difference.

But then, the ever increasing relative power of low-level characters has been a pretty steady trend throughout D&D's rule history. The switch from OD&D > 1e alone was pretty significant.

From a strictly hit point basis, a 1st level fighter in 3e (no Con bonus, thus 10hp) will generally have about the same number of hit points as a 2nd level fighter in 1e (again, no Con bonus) or a 3rd level fighter in pre-Greyhawk Supp. OD&D (again, no Con bonus). I know a lot more goes into it that hit points, but I think that's about right... a 3e character at first level is probably the equivalent to a 3rd level character in OD&D.

R.A.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Feats and skills in 3.5e open up possibilities to more focused or specialized fighters... or special abilities not easily gained in former editions for any class. But like mentioned before... monsters certainly are stronger too. HD and hps used to be the biggest "power indicators" of a monster's power or threat... nowadays you see some relatively low HD with higher CR monsters.

I think melee vs clerics vs arcane casters are more balanced overall... Mages were so much powerful IMO in other editions in higher levels.

 

[howandwhy99]

It really is a tough, tough comparison. I'm guessing you want to compare fighters because they seem simplest. It's difficult.

As RA mentioned a first-level 3E Ftr is probably equivalent to a third-level Ftr in OD&D. But 3E uses feats that both restrict and specialize fighters from the get go. OTOH, an OD&D fighter is proficient in ALL fighting styles from day one. By third-level an OD&D fighter is going to have some followers, a good bit of gold, and several other aspects which have nothing to do with damage ability.

Magic Users are even farther apart. OD&D has no 0-level spells. So at first-level your M-U has 1 spell slot for a first level spell. At second-level that becomes 2. Granted spells are more defined in game terms than by rules, but this makes them easier to customize. "Sleep" becomes a canon taking out several enemies. The rest of the time your M-U is probably using her sling from back in the trees. (or keeping watch, etc.) The nice thing is magic is so rare your power really means something. And choosing when to use those slots becomes the tactical choice. Not which to use from a myriad always available. It's a different style.

 

[S'mon]

I know the translation in regards to power is really impossible to pin down, but I was just wondering if anyone had a rough estimate.

I think they're actually roughly equivalent in terms of world-impact (ability to kill ogres, say) up to about 10th level, then every 1 3e level is about 2 1/2e levels worth of power, up through 20th. Epic 3e levels are more like 3 1/2e levels up through 30th.