Character Power Levels 1e/2e vs. 3.5e

[Numion]

NB most of the world is comprised of low level humans, at least IMC. I agree high level 3e PCs are less able to kill powerful monsters than their 1e counterparts, but they can kill far more city guard.

Well, this is a subjective matter. Do most D&D adventures comprise of lording over lesser foes, or do the adventurers usually end up fighting opponents of roughly suitable level? Earlier editions didn't have the CR system, but the modules did have level recommendations, which was kind of an implicit 'opponent equalizer'.

I'd say that 3E PCs need to be higher level than 1/2E to tackle similar threats. One could conclude from this that 3E levels comparatively weaker, even though the numbers are bigger.

It's like comparing a sound system volume to another by looking which systems volume dial has larger numbers.

 

[Storm Raven]

Actually, this comment intrigues me more than the edition comparison. Why did he "scoff"?

Indeed. Is the friend in question someone who routinely played 1e campaigns where the party level was in excess of 20th level? Did they use Deities and Demigods as a monster resource?

 

[Quasqueton]

It's like comparing a sound system volume to another by looking which systems volume dial has larger numbers.

D&D3 goes to 11!

Quasqueton

 

[Melan]

It is generally not recommended to compare the power levels assumed in OD&D, 1e or 3e. A "9th level character" means something entirely different in all three systems. In OD&D, 5th level was pretty impressive. In 1e as well - with the experience points required for level advancement, a 9th level character will have had a lot of adventures before becoming a "Lord", a "Wizard", a "Master Thief" (IIRC) or a "High Priest". Note the level titles. A 9th level 1e character is already at the top of the game world food chain - he can wrestle with dragons and demons, command large armies or cast spells such as "Raise Dead" and "Teleport". By comparison, a 9th level 3e character's relative power isn't quite that high, but this power is acquired much sooner due to generous XP rules.

After 9th level, the waters become even more muddy. Power progression slows down in 1e - e.g. fighters only get 3 hp per level, there aren't *that* many useful high level spells, etc. By comparison, 3e PCs can still expect to get substantially more powerful.

 

[S'mon]

Well, this is a subjective matter. Do most D&D adventures comprise of lording over lesser foes, or do the adventurers usually end up fighting opponents of roughly suitable level? Earlier editions didn't have the CR system, but the modules did have level recommendations, which was kind of an implicit 'opponent equalizer'.

I'd say that 3E PCs need to be higher level than 1/2E to tackle similar threats. One could conclude from this that 3E levels comparatively weaker, even though the numbers are bigger.

It's like comparing a sound system volume to another by looking which systems volume dial has larger numbers.

In 3e monsters have been buffed up more than PCs have, yup. So "adventures" are generally tougher & more tactical, at least for melee. Save-or-die & other special effects are greatly reduced in lethality, though.

But for me, world impact is not about standard 4-encounters-per-day dungeoncrawling, which frankly has zero world impact. World impact concerns the ability of the PCs to destroy armies, loot cities, and do other world-trashing stuff. 3e PCs at high level lack vulnerability and have much greater destructive power, spellcasters especially. You can't kill Lolth at 12th level in 3e*, OTOH you can destroy the orc army much more easily.

*I'm not sure you could in 1e either, at least not with a small group - when I ran Q1 the party were over 20th level & still challenged.

 

[S'mon]

A 9th level 1e character is already at the top of the game world food chain - he can wrestle with dragons and demons, command large armies or cast spells such as "Raise Dead" and "Teleport". By comparison, a 9th level 3e character's relative power isn't quite that high, but this power is acquired much sooner due to generous XP rules.

This is the one thing that really annoys me about 3e - per the RAW, 9th is only "mid level", yet they kept the spells at the same levels, so spells intended only for high level play like Teleport become available at 'mid level' and are in use throughout the bulk of a typical campaign. This more than anything gives 3e its "high magic" reputation.

 

[Numion]

But for me, world impact is not about standard 4-encounters-per-day dungeoncrawling, which frankly has zero world impact. World impact concerns the ability of the PCs to destroy armies, loot cities, and do other world-trashing stuff. 3e PCs at high level lack vulnerability and have much greater destructive power, spellcasters especially. You can't kill Lolth at 12th level in 3e*, OTOH you can destroy the orc army much more easily.

We use terms differently, I see. World-impact for me isn't actually trashing the DMs gameworld by looting cities, fighting the authority and lording over lesser mortals, but rather a measure of how high the PCs are on the food chain. As in Great Wyrms and demon lords at the top, and the blind kobold at the bottom. I chose to use this definition because D&D has never been for me about looting cities and fighting armies, but rather a game where going toe-to-toe with a Great Wyrm Red Dragon earns you much larger bragging rights than annihilating a detachment of city watch. YMMV, of course, but I'd wager that of the two varieties mine is the much more common.

In this regard level-for-level 3E characters are weaker than 1/2E characters.

 

[Sundragon2012]

Interesting Perspectives on the subject.

My friend, who I was referring to managed to get a 2e wizard up to 27th level as he had the character for a good many years. He noted that all he gained from being 27th level in the game outside of a couple of perks from the book DM's Option High Level Campaign was the ability to cast a few more spells. Alot of his power came from power and influence within the game. He could destroy a lot of enemies, no doubt about that, but when it came down to it there was no particular power in him that wasn't directly tied to a rather static spell list.

In 3.5e, and this is surely no complaint, there seems, due to feats and in the case of spellcasters, metamagic feats, that seem to imbue the characters themselves with certain intrinsic abilities that go above and beyond anything characters in 1e and 2e games ever got.

If I took a 20th level fighter in 2e and faced him off against the same level fighter in 3.5e, the 3.5e fighter would make pate out of him, spread him on a sandwich and eat him with some cheese. I remember running high level battles where no matter what level a fighter was all that he was doing was swinging his sword and hoping that his THAC0 was good enough to hit the enemy, now with the feats involved, the higher hit point totals, etc. that fighter is both more powerful and more colorful than his predesessor.

I know that everything is relative to the ruleset at the time and I know that D&D edition power levels between 3/3.5e and all other versions cannot be quantified because so much is different. I thought about this however and thought I would present the question to the board. Thanks for the responses.



Chris

 

[Quasqueton]

I'd like to point out that the AD&D1 and AD&D2 Player's Handbooks both had character levels up to 20. Officially, there have been 20 "core" levels for characters since 1978. It is erroneous to say that only now is 9th level "mid level". There were just as many 10+ level characters pre D&D3 as there are now.

Also, saying that high-level characters can take out armies or cities assumes that the PCs are the only high-level characters in the world. What, you think that when the PCs are 15th level, there aren't any NPCs anywhere over 5th? This is like those arguments saying that a mid-level mage can desimate an army because he has fireballs. Such arguments ignore the existance of enemy mages and mid-level teams in armies specifically to thrawt such tactics.

In every world I've ever read about, heard about, or played in, PCs don't exist in a vacuum because of their class or their levels.

Quasqueton

 

[Numion]

If I took a 20th level fighter in 2e and faced him off against the same level fighter in 3.5e, the 3.5e fighter would make pate out of him, spread him on a sandwich and eat him with some cheese.

Thats true, and not least for the fact that the 2E dude acts once a minute while the 3E guy keeps pounding actions in every 6 seconds!!!