Character Power Levels 1e/2e vs. 3.5e

[Henry]

Why? You can't go giving one side more stuff (or more/better personalized stuff). If you give one fighter more/better magic equipment or ability scores, you have to give the other also (and remember that AD&D1 characters got full Dex bonus in heavy armor). This is supposed to be a neutral comparison.

It's not neutral if you DON'T give him those adjustments. A 1st level AD&D fighter doesn't start with max hit points, but a 3E D&D fighter does; second, a 3E fighter will at mid-levels have a higher AC than a 10th level AD&D fighter, going by the rules in respective editions. (Check the pre-generated character rules in the back of the AD&D DMG, as well as comparing characters from various campaigns).

 

[Psion]

All I know is (well, not all I know , but it's an essential point AFAIAC):

10th-12th level characters in my last campaign were taking on ancient dragons and balors.

In 3e, characters of that level would be toast.

 

[Henry]

All I know is (well, not all I know , but it's an essential point AFAIAC):

10th-12th level characters in my last campaign were taking on ancient dragons and balors.

In 3e, characters of that level would be toast.

Oh, agreed - in fact, my last AD&D campaign had a 9th level Ranger who fought a Balor, but he got too anxious and -- ahem -- lost his head. But he did almost win by himself.

 

[Quasqueton]

It's not neutral if you DON'T give him those adjustments. A 1st level AD&D fighter doesn't start with max hit points, but a 3E D&D fighter does; second, a 3E fighter will at mid-levels have a higher AC than a 10th level AD&D fighter, going by the rules in respective editions. (Check the pre-generated character rules in the back of the AD&D DMG, as well as comparing characters from various campaigns).

I didn't give the AD&D max 1st-level hit points. (I gave me calculations in the parathetical notes.)

3E fighter will at mid-levels have a higher AC than a 10th level AD&D fighter, going by the rules in respective editions

No. If you are looking just as mundane armor and Dex bonuses, they will be essesntially the same.

D&D3: full plate, heavy shield = AC 20
AD&D: field plate, shield = AC 20 [0]
[My memory correct?]

If you are talking about magic, then that is up to the DM, not the rules. There is no rule saying that a 10th-level fighter *will* have or even *should* have X magic at Y level in either edition. There are guidelines for both editions, explicitedly for creating the character at 10th level, but no rules on how much magic they either should have when *played* up to that level.

But even if you did give the D&D3 fighter more stuff, he still has half the staying power against a hill giant compared to the AD&D1 fighter.

But anyway, it still shows that, as someone else mentioned, the numbers have gotten bigger all around the game, and comparing power level straight between editions is not a good measuring stick.

Quasqueton

 

[Henry]

I didn't give the AD&D max 1st-level hit points. (I gave me calculations in the parathetical notes.)

That's why their hit points shouldn't be the same, like you made them. An AD&D fighter will have 9d10 + 3 + con bonuses.

No. If you are looking just as mundane armor and Dex bonuses, they will be essentially the same.

D&D3: full plate, heavy shield = AC 20
AD&D: field plate, shield = AC 20 [0]
[My memory correct?]

Pretty much. (Full Plate + shield from UA would do it.) If you're going on that comparison, I agree - I was thinking more about the rules from the DMG which at best game him about a 60% chance of owning magic plate mail, and only magic chain mail and shield as a certainty.

If you are talking about magic, then that is up to the DM, not the rules. There is no rule saying that a 10th-level fighter *will* have or even *should* have X magic at Y level in either edition. There are guidelines for both editions, explicitedly for creating the character at 10th level, but no rules on how much magic they either should have when *played* up to that level.

True, but the guidelines say that default characters WILL have a certain amount of value equipment at 10th level; comparing what your average character will have in each party means one will likely have more than the other, rather than an artificial comparison matching number for number.

But anyway, it still shows that, as someone else mentioned, the numbers have gotten bigger all around the game, and comparing power level straight between editions is not a good measuring stick.

Absolutely - it also means that trying to "3E-ify" an AD&D character will end up with odd results that can't be compared "apples to apples." But the fact that the numbers have gotten larger across the board means that fights will have very different outcomes, and 10-round fights before are more like 3-round fights now.

 

[molonel]

Thats true, and not least for the fact that the 2E dude acts once a minute while the 3E guy keeps pounding actions in every 6 seconds!!!

That, plus, the 3e guy can do a full-swing power attack and hit every time, since the 1e/2e guy's armor class is somewhere between -10 and 10. That's easy to hit.

Though, oddly, now that I think about it: the 1e/2e guy will hit every time, too, since the 3e guy's armor class will be above 10.

I thought the original discussion concerned whether or not 1e/2e character's were more powerful inside their respective game, rather than whether or not a 1e fighter would kill a 3e fighter.

The latter is (no offense) a rather useless question. It's like asking who would win in a fight, my Everquest character, my World of Warcraft character, my d20 Modern character, or my 3.5 D&D character.

 

[Quasqueton]

AD&D1 fighter translated to D&D3:
AC 20, hit points 71 (9 x5.5, +18 [+2 con bonus], +4 [10th level])

D&D3 10th-level fighter:
AC 20, hit points 79 (10, + 9x5.5, +20 [+2 con bonus])

That's why their hit points shouldn't be the same, like you made them. An AD&D fighter will have 9d10 + 3 + con bonuses.

Is that not what I did? (Only off by 1 point.)

I was thinking more about the rules from the DMG which at best game him about a 60% chance of owning magic plate mail, and only magic chain mail and shield as a certainty.

But there's no guarantee/rule that says the D&D3 fighter will have magic armor. His "wealth level" may be in a weapon of misc. items (in that 40% from AD&D1).

Absolutely - it also means that trying to "3E-ify" an AD&D character will end up with odd results that can't be compared "apples to apples." But the fact that the numbers have gotten larger across the board means that fights will have very different outcomes, and 10-round fights before are more like 3-round fights now.

Sort of like comparing the power level of King Kong through the years, from 1933 to 2005. Same concept, story, and such, but new technology and culture.

I bet Peter Jackson's KK could beat the crap out of Merian C. Cooper/Ernest B. Schoedsack's KK

Quasqueton

 

[Henry]

Mea Culpa -- I made two mistakes looking over your numbers:

1) I mistakenly saw the AD&D fighter as having 79 hit points, same as the 3E fighter;
2) I saw the "10" for hit points instead of "12" and thought you hadn't given 3E guy his first level CON bonus.

DUUUHHHH...

Only one last mistake on the AD&D guy, that I can see: he got 3 more hit points at 10th level, with no CON bonus, instead of the +4 you gave him. So on average he's at 70 hp's. No biggie.

And yeah, the differences in scale are there; Hill giants were a bigger challenge than you first suggested, but it's true that the 3E giants are a BIGGER relative challenge.

But there's no guarantee/rule that says the D&D3 fighter will have magic armor. His "wealth level" may be in a weapon of misc. items (in that 40% from AD&D1).

I'll still have to disagree on that one, though, because the default rules suggest he'll have magic armor, and it will be customized to his wishes, up to one-quarter or on-half the value of his suggested wealth. (3.0's NPC equipment tables and all the example characters I've ever seen suggest that to me more as much as anything.) A DM could change that, but then, a DM could change that no matter what rules you're using, and I'm thinking more along the lines of "actual table conditions" rather than a strict even comparison of no magic to no magic. It's still irrelevant, because a 10th level fighter will find it a tough challenge regardless of rule set.