D&D 5E Characters are not their statistics and abilities

[The Crimson Binome]

Don't have too much experience under my belt yet, but right now I would draw the line at intentionally harming the other party members. Not something like "intentionally" taking +2 instead of +3 in your main stat, but something like selling your parties souls to a hag.

A good point, and worth keeping in mind, but that's not the question I'm asking. I specifically want to know about personal tolerance toward mechanical effectiveness.

Imagine you're playing in a serious game, you've put a lot into your character (personality and backstory), you've explored and saved the day and made friends with NPCs, and you've lost one or two (PC) allies to nefarious enemies. You've been playing the campaign for six months and everyone is around level 10, when you get a new player to the game. The new player is playing a half-elf barbarian (also level 10) with a greataxe.

When the character joins the game and the new player describes their appearance, they mention that they have a Strength of X, which catches you off guard because you really would have expected their Strength to be higher, and now you're unsure about whether this new character/player is going to work out. It may not have been presented that way, but you can't help but feel that the character is going to wind up as comic relief, which doesn't at all fit the serious/gritty tone of the game you've been playing so far.

How high could X be, for you to still have this reaction? For the purpose of this question, assume the game isn't using feats.

 

[Corwin]

Hi, Tony!

 

[Lanliss]

A good point, and worth keeping in mind, but that's not the question I'm asking. I specifically want to know about personal tolerance toward mechanical effectiveness.

Imagine you're playing in a serious game, you've put a lot into your character (personality and backstory), you've explored and saved the day and made friends with NPCs, and you've lost one or two (PC) allies to nefarious enemies. You've been playing the campaign for six months and everyone is around level 10, when you get a new player to the game. The new player is playing a half-elf barbarian (also level 10) with a greataxe.

When the character joins the game and the new player describes their appearance, they mention that they have a Strength of X, which catches you off guard because you really would have expected their Strength to be higher, and now you're unsure about whether this new character/player is going to work out. It may not have been presented that way, but you can't help but feel that the character is going to wind up as comic relief, which doesn't at all fit the serious/gritty tone of the game you've been playing so far.

How high could X be, for you to still have this reaction? For the purpose of this question, assume the game isn't using feats.

I was talking about mechanical implications as well. Short of actually trying ​to get you out party killed, you are free to do as you wish. I imagine I could handle them bringing a stat as low as 6 before I need to change up how I handle things. If my players have survived that long I doubt this will have been their first time dragging dead weight. I would let it continue as long as the Player wanted to stick with the character.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I imagine I could handle them bringing a stat as low as 6 before I need to change up how I handle things. If my players have survived that long I doubt this will have been their first time dragging dead weight. I would let it continue as long as the Player wanted to stick with the character.

And as a player, you wouldn't be afraid of this character ending up as comic relief? As a character, you wouldn't doubt the ability of this individual to pull their weight? You think that a Strength 6 barbarian would contribute fully up to your expectations, alongside a Strength 20 fighter or a Strength 18 paladin?

I'm not trying to dissuade you, or anything, as I haven't actually run the math on that. I'm just clarifying the question.

 

[Sunseeker]

And as a player, you wouldn't be afraid of this character ending up as comic relief? As a character, you wouldn't doubt the ability of this individual to pull their weight? You think that a Strength 6 barbarian would contribute fully up to your expectations, alongside a Strength 20 fighter or a Strength 18 paladin?

I'm not trying to dissuade you, or anything, as I haven't actually run the math on that. I'm just clarifying the question.

To note some points, and this may be just me:
1: In character your ability to determine the "stats" of another player depends entirely on your decision to make such an analysis and a perception check. The "new guy" may seem strong when they are not, weak when they are strong, quick when they are slow simply because you either didn't bother to check them out, or you failed in your attempt to do so. Another party member may have succeeded but it is up to them to divulge what they have discovered.

2: Out-of-Character, players are under absolutely NO obligation to disclose anything at all about their character. I quite prefer role-played introductions and encourage people to introduce their characters via their character's appearance. "You see a tall, dark-haried man standing well over six feet tall, his ripling muscles laid bare beneath nothing more than a harness, dark, curly hair covers a great deal of his body and he introduces himself as curtly with a heavy accent as 'Bort, Ape-Man for hire.'" I won't force a player to describe their character in a way that matches their stats, Bort could be highly intelligent and his muscles mostly for show, and I won't stop a player from telling other players their classes, stats or other vitals, though I will tend to frown and wag a finger, then encourage them to reintroduce themselves as they see their character, but won't press it beyond that.

In any case, my point is that in character your knowledge of another PC's stats is limited to what your own character is interested in or able to discern. As a player your knowledge of another PC is limited to what that player is required to tell you per the etiquette rules of the table, every table differs of course and mine is only one example. A PC's limitations would likely become visible after a few missions with them and at which point I always allow my players to tell their follows to shape up or ship out. There may be some friend-level obligation to keep a friend in the party, but that friendship shouldn't be conditional on dealing with a character that is detrimental to the party.

 

[Lanliss]

And as a player, you wouldn't be afraid of this character ending up as comic relief? As a character, you wouldn't doubt the ability of this individual to pull their weight? You think that a Strength 6 barbarian would contribute fully up to your expectations, alongside a Strength 20 fighter or a Strength 18 paladin?

I'm not trying to dissuade you, or anything, as I haven't actually run the math on that. I'm just clarifying the question.

1) Comic relief depends on just how they play the character. If they play it seriously, maybe like a once great warrior who was weakened, but is still trying his best to live up to his reputation, I can take him seriously.

2) as a character, almost the same, but it also depends on established connections. An old friend who needs help coming back from a curse or injury, I would definitely allow them in. Random merc that no one has ever heard of, maybe not. All depends on the set up.

3) It depends on how the party is playing. If the STR 20 fighter likes daggers and bows, that 20 won't help much. Assuming they are playing to their strengths though, no, he would not be able to keep up in a 1-to-1 damage fight, but he might help in other ways. Maybe while the two tanks fight the baddies, the newcomer works to free hostages, or set up obstacles to hinder other enemies.

As a bonus, the idea of a Barbarian from a family who holds strength above all else, but is not strong himself, sounds like it could be fun to role play, trying to choose between making daddy proud by hammering the Dragon with his Warhammer, or playing it smarter somehow would be a constant internal battle. The way the character works out all depends on his other stats.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

And as a player, you wouldn't be afraid of this character ending up as comic relief? As a character, you wouldn't doubt the ability of this individual to pull their weight? You think that a Strength 6 barbarian would contribute fully up to your expectations, alongside a Strength 20 fighter or a Strength 18 paladin?

I'm curious. In what would you not expect a Str 6 Barbarian to be an asset? Remember, this is a game where even a CR 0 Owl familiar can make itself useful by Helping someone else attack. Even if the Barbarian does nothing but (1) tank hits with his HP and Rage, and (2) Help other PCs attack, you're still clearly better off in most scenarios if this guy is your friend rather than your enemy. In reality of course he is likely to contribute quite a bit more. For example, if he's trained in Athletics, he's still pretty decent at grappling while he's Raging. And grappling makes him better at tanking.

Someone doesn't become a liability unless he is a backstabbing coward, or Active/Stupid.

Now I kind of want to play a Str 6 "wounded warrior" Barbarian.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm curious. In what would you not expect a Str 6 Barbarian to be an asset? Remember, this is a game where even a CR 0 Owl familiar can make itself useful by Helping someone else attack. Even if the Barbarian does nothing but (1) tank hits with his HP and Rage, and (2) Help other PCs attack, you're still clearly better off in most scenarios if this guy is your friend rather than your enemy.

A familiar can Help someone if they can figure out some way to do so; the DM is under no obligation to make it so, where it would make no sense. Ignoring that, for now...

There's a difference between the weight that a party member is expected to pull, and the weight that a familiar is expected to pull. A barbarian, fighter, rogue, monk, paladin, or ranger should be able to hit a tough enemy; and a level 10 member of such a class should be able to drop an orc in six seconds, with some reasonable degree of certainty. When you hear that you're going to enlist the aid of a barbarian, that sets up some level of expectation, and if they fail to live up that then it's a disappointment. Even if their contribution is better than nothing - on par with an owl or a peasant - it's still a disappointment compared to expectations.

And no, the barbarian isn't going to tank many hits, because enemies won't bother attacking the frail old barbarian when there are actual threats left on the field. The difference between Strength 6 and Strength 16 is immediately obvious to everyone who can see (or at least, it is in this case, as per the example given).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A familiar can Help someone if they can figure out some way to do so; the DM is under no obligation to make it so, where it would make no sense. Ignoring that, for now...

There's a difference between the weight that a party member is expected to pull, and the weight that a familiar is expected to pull. A barbarian, fighter, rogue, monk, paladin, or ranger should be able to hit a tough enemy; and a level 10 member of such a class should be able to drop an orc in six seconds, with some reasonable degree of certainty. When you hear that you're going to enlist the aid of a barbarian, that sets up some level of expectation, and if they fail to live up that then it's a disappointment. Even if their contribution is better than nothing - on par with an owl or a peasant - it's still a disappointment compared to expectations.

And no, the barbarian isn't going to tank many hits, because enemies won't bother attacking the frail old barbarian when there are actual threats left on the field. The difference between Strength 6 and Strength 16 is immediately obvious to everyone who can see (or at least, it is in this case, as per the example given).

I understand your point about "the weight a party member is expected to pull" at the metagame level--the level at which you expect, rightly or wrongly, that if the Barbarian goes away he will be replaced by some other PC. But characters don't know anything about the number of players at the table, or replacement characters, or anything else. From the in-character, in-world viewpoint, having a brave Barbarian ally along is nothing but a plus unless you're worried about the food he eats or the share of the treasure he will take. (If so, negotiate that share down to something you both find reasonable. A player who makes a Str 6 Barbarian is probably going to be quite reasonable about getting a reduced share of the treasure anyway, because clearly he is not a munchkin.)

RE: tanking... so, you think enemies are just going to ignore the Barbarian and take opportunity attacks every round instead as they flee from him? That increases his DPR by about 50%, since he's now getting three attacks per round for about 2d6+1 points per hit. (2d6 greatsword, -2 for Str, +3 for Rage.) Two of those attacks are at advantage due to Reckless Attack; the opportunity attack does not benefit from Reckless Attack. And then if he grapples them, melee enemies now have no choice but to attack him or spend actions breaking free, since they physically cannot reach anyone else.

Kobold.com-generated Medium encounter for four 9th level characters: Flameskull + 2 Hobgoblin Captains.
Success rate for a 9th level Str 6 Athletics-proficient Raging Barbearian to grapple a Hobgoblin Captain: (d20a-2+4) beats d20+2 64% of the time, and he gets two attempts, so success rate is (1-(1-0.64)^2) = 87%.

87% of the time, the Hobgoblin Captain is forced to engage the Barbearian.

Good luck with that "ignoring" strategy. This scarred barbarian may be old and crippled, but he's not out of the game yet, not by a long shot.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Well, yes. For the characters, having nearly anyone around is better than not having them around, provided that they aren't actually expecting you to save them at the drop of a hat. Any party that has a non-combat NPC with them shouldn't treat that person different from a low-optimization PC. This is all from a player lens, where the low-op PC is there instead of a high-op PC.