Charging someone who is charging?

[xnosipjpqmhd]

Imagine a joust. Two horsemen charging each other.

According to the D&D rules, one of them (whoever had initiative) would get the bonus for Charging, make an attack roll, and deal damage. Then the other combatant, if still able, would get a normal attack.

Is that interpretation correct according to the rules?
It doesn't seem quite right for a joust to come down to an initiative roll, does it?
Is there any other way to adjudicate such a situation?
Should someone who is charging with a suitable weapon be considered set to receive a charge as well?
Should both combatants simply get no charge bonus and their attacks be considered simultaneous?
Was this addressed in a Sage Advice sometime?

 

[Jack Simth]

Unless you dig up some game suppliment somewhere that has a different set of rules, pretty much.

But yes, Initiative is going to be very good for whoever wins it, as they get first strike, so to speak. It's not, however, everything; your touch AC is going to do wonders.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Is there any other way to adjudicate such a situation?

Yes. First, get the DM to agree that you can ready a partial charge. (This is a fiercely debated topic.) Now, whichever jouster wins initiative readies a partial charge. The loser simply begins charging. The winner then interrupts the loser's charge with his own (partial) charge. The winner gets to make his attack first, at +2 on his attack roll, and the loser is at -2 AC for charging. The loser (if still alive, mounted, etc.) then gets to make his attack at +2 for charging, and the winner is also at -2 AC for having charged. Everybody happy.

 

[shilsen]

Complete Warrior, pg.130, has variant rules for jousting. It suggests, among other things, that you don't bother with initiative and resolve the attacks for both combatants simultaneously.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes. First, get the DM to agree that you can ready a partial charge. (This is a fiercely debated topic.) Now, whichever jouster wins initiative readies a partial charge. The loser simply begins charging. The winner then interrupts the loser's charge with his own (partial) charge. The winner gets to make his attack first, at +2 on his attack roll, and the loser is at -2 AC for charging.

Assuming you allow Readying of a restricted charge (for legality, let's say both characters are under the effects of a Slow spell):

The winner's Readied action must trigger when the opponent is still at least 20 feet away, since the winner must travel at least 10 feet before his attack (and has 10 foot reach).

Thus, the Readied action takes place firmly in the 'movement' portion of the opponent's charge, well before he makes his attack. Thus, he is not at -2 AC when the winner strikes him, since the -2 AC is a feature of 'Attacking on a Charge', not of 'Movement During a Charge'. Until the loser attacks, his AC is unpenalised.

CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

-Hyp.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

I assume that's from the SRD? I base my ruling off the PHB:

Since a charge is a bit reckless, you also take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

To me, that implies the penalty applies from the moment you begin "recklessly charging." Reasonable minds can differ, I suppose.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I assume that's from the SRD? I base my ruling off the PHB:

Since a charge is a bit reckless, you also take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

In the PHB, that line appears in the same place - in the paragraph that begins "Attacking on a charge: After moving..."

When do you take the penalty to AC? From when you attack, to the start of your next turn...

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

When it doubt, keep it simple:

Jousting? Polite, agreed upon circumstances, and a marked starting point?

Opposed attack rolls, followed by ride checks to stay horsed.

 

[Ranger REG]

In the PHB, that line appears in the same place - in the paragraph that begins "Attacking on a charge: After moving..."

When do you take the penalty to AC? From when you attack, to the start of your next turn...

When you make your attack after moving. That may mean you keep your AC "as is" when you approach a reach-weapon wielder who may not be ready to receive a charge. If he does ready, then he can interrupt before you makes an attack roll and hit you with your now-penalized AC.

No pun intended, but this is going to shaft reach-weapon users.

 

[Vegepygmy]

In the PHB, that line appears in the same place - in the paragraph that begins "Attacking on a charge: After moving..."

I don't assign the same significance to the location of the rule within the text as you do. To me, it seems quite clear that the charging is what's "a bit reckless," not the attacking.

The Combat Expertise feat says that "When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class." By your logic, this would mean that you only get the bonus to AC after you make your attack...yet the 3.0 FAQ makes it clear that you get the bonus even while moving to make your attack. I see no reason to treat a Charge differently, especially given the flavor text.

No pun intended, but this is going to shaft reach-weapon users.

Exactly. This is an excellent example why I don't believe Hyp's interpretation is (1) correct or (2) wise.