Charisma, still the poor stat!
Lord Vangarel
First Post
shilsen, nice article. 
Using Charisma more in the game is why I asked the question in the first place. After years of players using Charisma as the lowest stat because it didn't really affect anything I want a change. Tonight is my first session since the discussion started and I've been rereading the trhread and thinking of all the ways I can use Charisma in the game!
Using Charisma more in the game is why I asked the question in the first place. After years of players using Charisma as the lowest stat because it didn't really affect anything I want a change. Tonight is my first session since the discussion started and I've been rereading the trhread and thinking of all the ways I can use Charisma in the game!
Only a dolt thinks that Charisma has no effect, even in a hack-and-slash game. If used effectively, social skills have an incredible effect on combats.
The group is the same as outlined previously...
Just yesterday, we had the climactic battle, but things weren't going too well. I managed to charm the enemy rogue (and used a charisma check to get her to attack the enemy cleric number 2). But unfortunately, the evil minions coupled with the number 1 bad guy (another evil cleric) managed to take her down. We managed to take out the minions, and then, badly wounded, down to 2PCs (we were facing a Nerull cult, so they Death Knelled our party rogue) and faced with the big boss, unharmed, scythe-wielding, death knelled, enduranced and angry, we knew we would lose. So, combining Bluff, Intimidate and a quick prayer, I declared: 'We have defeated your minions and you are now outnumbered two-to-one. I suggest that you stands down immediately, unless you wish to end up like your apprentice'. I then coup de graced the apprentice cleric. Nevertheless, he gave us a cursory glance to try to determine how badly wounded we were. Another Bluff success told him that we were fighting-fit. Downing a potion of gaseous form, he retreated out of the manor.
We gave chase. I managed to climb out of the window with my comrade holding the rope, and he took the stairs. Downstairs, he encountered some more guards. He would almost certainly have been killed in his wounded state, but he bellowed 'We have defeated your master. Flee now and I will spare your lives.' They ran. Meanwhile, the gaseous master had entered the library and I went in smashing the downstairs window. Unfortunately, he had hidden and managed to surprise me. Luckily he missed, but what happened then was a curious cat-and-mouse chase. I dared not run away lest I draw a fatal attack of opportunity, but in his full plate he could only run 60', so I could safely double-move away. I also knew reinforcements were on the way, in the form of the charisma 3 barbarian who had failed to originally infiltrate the building. Inside, two more guards had approached my colleague, and though he intimidated one the other held his ground and in a quick clash the player only just triumphed with 2hps remaining.
Outside, the guards whom had fled from inside saw their master pursuing me and joined in the chase. In lighter armour, they could reach me. I chose to break into a run to avoid them, but as suspected, the AoO from the master hit, reducing me to precisely 0hp. I was forced instead to drink a potion instead of go the distance. The master then offered me a surrender (with a less charismatic character, the DM confided, he would instead have pressed the attack). Bluffing again, I presented to surrender but then broke into a run. I managed to escape and fled to meet the oncoming barbarian. The barbarian slew the minions before being killed by the master. However, the party cleric had run up from the house by now and together we Intimidated the archvillain, still knowing that he could defeat us, whilst bluffing that we were less wounded than we really were. Running out of options, he decided to run to a distant gatehouse controlled by his troops. Drawing our missile weapons, we eventually killed him in a drawn-out pursuit.
A long-winded anecdote perhaps, but it demonstrates the value of Charisma. No less than eight Charisma based checks were involved (the charmed rogue, the initial intimidation, the bluff to demonstrate health, two sets of intimidations against the guards downstairs, the bluff of surrender, the final intimidation and bluff) and a passive Charisma check (offering surrender terms instead of killing me) turned a total player kill into a victory over a much stronger foe. Now who would claim that Charisma, well-deployed, has no place in a combat?
The group is the same as outlined previously...
Just yesterday, we had the climactic battle, but things weren't going too well. I managed to charm the enemy rogue (and used a charisma check to get her to attack the enemy cleric number 2). But unfortunately, the evil minions coupled with the number 1 bad guy (another evil cleric) managed to take her down. We managed to take out the minions, and then, badly wounded, down to 2PCs (we were facing a Nerull cult, so they Death Knelled our party rogue) and faced with the big boss, unharmed, scythe-wielding, death knelled, enduranced and angry, we knew we would lose. So, combining Bluff, Intimidate and a quick prayer, I declared: 'We have defeated your minions and you are now outnumbered two-to-one. I suggest that you stands down immediately, unless you wish to end up like your apprentice'. I then coup de graced the apprentice cleric. Nevertheless, he gave us a cursory glance to try to determine how badly wounded we were. Another Bluff success told him that we were fighting-fit. Downing a potion of gaseous form, he retreated out of the manor.
We gave chase. I managed to climb out of the window with my comrade holding the rope, and he took the stairs. Downstairs, he encountered some more guards. He would almost certainly have been killed in his wounded state, but he bellowed 'We have defeated your master. Flee now and I will spare your lives.' They ran. Meanwhile, the gaseous master had entered the library and I went in smashing the downstairs window. Unfortunately, he had hidden and managed to surprise me. Luckily he missed, but what happened then was a curious cat-and-mouse chase. I dared not run away lest I draw a fatal attack of opportunity, but in his full plate he could only run 60', so I could safely double-move away. I also knew reinforcements were on the way, in the form of the charisma 3 barbarian who had failed to originally infiltrate the building. Inside, two more guards had approached my colleague, and though he intimidated one the other held his ground and in a quick clash the player only just triumphed with 2hps remaining.
Outside, the guards whom had fled from inside saw their master pursuing me and joined in the chase. In lighter armour, they could reach me. I chose to break into a run to avoid them, but as suspected, the AoO from the master hit, reducing me to precisely 0hp. I was forced instead to drink a potion instead of go the distance. The master then offered me a surrender (with a less charismatic character, the DM confided, he would instead have pressed the attack). Bluffing again, I presented to surrender but then broke into a run. I managed to escape and fled to meet the oncoming barbarian. The barbarian slew the minions before being killed by the master. However, the party cleric had run up from the house by now and together we Intimidated the archvillain, still knowing that he could defeat us, whilst bluffing that we were less wounded than we really were. Running out of options, he decided to run to a distant gatehouse controlled by his troops. Drawing our missile weapons, we eventually killed him in a drawn-out pursuit.
A long-winded anecdote perhaps, but it demonstrates the value of Charisma. No less than eight Charisma based checks were involved (the charmed rogue, the initial intimidation, the bluff to demonstrate health, two sets of intimidations against the guards downstairs, the bluff of surrender, the final intimidation and bluff) and a passive Charisma check (offering surrender terms instead of killing me) turned a total player kill into a victory over a much stronger foe. Now who would claim that Charisma, well-deployed, has no place in a combat?
Al said:
I don't think we're saying that Charisma doesn't have an effect. I think we're saying it doesn't have ENOUGH of an effect. Strength affects attack and damage rolls and encumbrance, Dexterity affects AC and Reflex saves, Wisdom affects Will saves, Intelligence affects skill points, and Charisma affects?
If you look at that list Wisdom also seems underpowered, but there are a lot of skills, including the vital Listen and Spot, that are based on Wisdom. A lot of GMs don't even USE Charisma skills because they want to reward good roleplaying.
Yes, ability scores are partially dependent on class - so many (paladin, cleric, bard, sorcerer) classes will want a good Charisma score. But for the remaining classes (fighter, rogue, druid, barbarian, ranger, wizard) its still a dump stat.
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Al said:
Interesting Anecdote. I still stand by my original statement, that Charisma has no "affect" on combat. By affect, I mean direct influence. All the instances you suggested were indirect results based on traditionally non-combat skills. I laud your DM for allowing creative and even obvious use of skills you'd taken though. As a player, I LOVE using EVERYTHING to try and gain advantage in roleplay or gameplay.
As a DM, I give bonuses to some combat rolls and some skill rolls, for performing a dramatic effect. The effect has to be spelled out and well explained. If they have the perform skill, which is Charisma based, and the appropriate sub-type of perform, they can use this bonus to enhance their dramatic effect.
Andy Christian
Lord Vangarel
First Post
I think that the problem is Charisma doesn't have an obvious effect on the game unless the DM makes it do so. It's easy to slip into a model of wanting the players to roleplay so bonuses are applied based on a players ability to roleplay and as I have done for the majority of the past npc decisions have been swayed as part of the roleplay with the player when the greater part of the decision should be down to the dice based off the characters score and a DC set by the motivations of the npc.
As has been said before, every other stat has a clearly visible effect on the game mechanics, Charisma, unless special efforts are made can have no apparent effect. Given this it's no wonder players dump on Charisma.
As has been said before, every other stat has a clearly visible effect on the game mechanics, Charisma, unless special efforts are made can have no apparent effect. Given this it's no wonder players dump on Charisma.
evileeyore
Mrrrph
The easiest way to increase the use of CHA as a stat is to increase the use in your games.
I have never found CHA to be a 'dump' stat. All my characters have had decent CHA, except for one. He was a Rogue/Ranger/Barbarian... and I really hated having to give him a CHA of 9. I just portrayed him as only speaking when he really had something important to say and not ever explianing himself. He was an @ss, towards those not in his religion, and gave no time to anyone not directly important to him.
My other character have all had good CHA 0f 14 ot higher, in fact I often find STR or WIS to be my 'dump' stats, my other characters have been a Noble Sorceror, a Conman Rogue, and a Crane Courtier (with a 20 diplomacy at 2nd level... heheh).
In fact in the Rokugan game we are about to start (it will likely be a oneshot), our group has good CHA across the board. The Samurai is a court iajutsu master so he wanted a good diplomacy, the Shugenja/Samurai wanted a decent CHA for the same reasons, I am a Courteir thusly CHA is my important stat. In fact the only character to short his CHA is the Inkyo, and as he plans to be my characters servant (tutor in shintoa and semibodyguard) it doesn't matter that his CHA is low.
Anyway a word of caution. If your group currently have low CHA scores don't rush into scenes where it will penelize them to heavily. Just start hinting at it. Like deny them jobs that they 'could' have gotten if they were better liked. Don't even write up those missions, just have them fail the interview and later over hear how 'some losers' failed to get hired becuase the boss 'didn't like the way they spoke or acted'. Then send them on the planned adveture. Or lower a couple of rewards and let it get around that they were swindled because they didn't make good impressions. Heck even force tehm to have to lie or bluff at somepoint, but be ready for them to fail.
I have never found CHA to be a 'dump' stat. All my characters have had decent CHA, except for one. He was a Rogue/Ranger/Barbarian... and I really hated having to give him a CHA of 9. I just portrayed him as only speaking when he really had something important to say and not ever explianing himself. He was an @ss, towards those not in his religion, and gave no time to anyone not directly important to him.
My other character have all had good CHA 0f 14 ot higher, in fact I often find STR or WIS to be my 'dump' stats, my other characters have been a Noble Sorceror, a Conman Rogue, and a Crane Courtier (with a 20 diplomacy at 2nd level... heheh).
In fact in the Rokugan game we are about to start (it will likely be a oneshot), our group has good CHA across the board. The Samurai is a court iajutsu master so he wanted a good diplomacy, the Shugenja/Samurai wanted a decent CHA for the same reasons, I am a Courteir thusly CHA is my important stat. In fact the only character to short his CHA is the Inkyo, and as he plans to be my characters servant (tutor in shintoa and semibodyguard) it doesn't matter that his CHA is low.
Anyway a word of caution. If your group currently have low CHA scores don't rush into scenes where it will penelize them to heavily. Just start hinting at it. Like deny them jobs that they 'could' have gotten if they were better liked. Don't even write up those missions, just have them fail the interview and later over hear how 'some losers' failed to get hired becuase the boss 'didn't like the way they spoke or acted'. Then send them on the planned adveture. Or lower a couple of rewards and let it get around that they were swindled because they didn't make good impressions. Heck even force tehm to have to lie or bluff at somepoint, but be ready for them to fail.
Bagpuss
Legend
Lord Vangarel said:
There is no need to force the issue, Charisma is still an important stat for several classes, Clerics, Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers and many Rogues.
Why try and force it for Fighters, Wizards and Rangers, who could be deficiant in the areas important to them if they need to put points into Charisma.
Do you force Wizards to have high Strength scores, when a large number of wizards can use that as a dump stat?
Lord Vangarel
First Post
I don't want to force it but unvariably the players place their lowest stat roll in Charisma because they don't see the stat as useful. What I was looking for is methods of demonstrating that the stat is useful and shouldn't be the forgotten stat unless your class specifically requires it.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Incidentally it is possible to make a really kick-ass ranger character by giving him a great Charisma, and max skill points in Handle Animal and Animal Empathy. By 9th level he can be regularly training Tyrannosaurs to work with him (Especially if he decides to take skill focus(handle animal).
It is a different take on Ranger, but one which can make a powerful character - he is much better off using his skills than the paltry animal friendship for this kind of thing!
Cheers
It is a different take on Ranger, but one which can make a powerful character - he is much better off using his skills than the paltry animal friendship for this kind of thing!
Cheers
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