Charisma, still the poor stat!

[Shard O'Glase]

Well. If you want to make charisma VERY important, play in a Mafia-type quest like our DM just started for us. Respect is everything unfriendly people get the shaft sooner or later. As for any low cha characters like mine in that sort of quest, they play another part. I beat people up for information and/or back-owed money.

Anybody read the Myth series of books by Robert Asprin. I always found Guido and Nuzio to be my favorite Mafia thugs ever written. Both of which I'd give at least a decent chr to. Especially after the scene from Gleeps perspecitive, where I think Nuzio was slaapping some thug down because he was such a disgrace to criminals everywhere with the crappy job he did trying to rob the place Nuzio was guarding.

 

[FireLance]

One way is to have low-Cha PCs singled out for special attention by attacking monsters. This should be used sparingly, as clever parties will otherwise plan on the basis that the low-Cha PC will be attacked the most often, and buff him up accordingly.

That said, I would only consider it a problem if every member of the party has a low charisma. Adventuring parties are supposed to have a good mix of abilities so that each member can rely on another's strengths to offset their individual weaknesses. Just as the high-Str barbarian defends the bard in combat, the high-Cha bard takes the lead in social encounters.

The A-Team would not be half as effective if every member was the Faceman, or if every one was a B.A. clone.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: will saves man, will saves

This was mentioned earlier in the thread, and the problem with that is that then there is nothing to prevent wisdom from becoming the dump stat.

I don't believe this is strictly true, since Wis is the key stat for Spot and Listen - probably two of the most important skills in the game!

Anyone who treated Wis as a dump stat would be getting surprised ALL the time, and this would not be condusive to his health!

 

[Plane Sailing]

It's not earth-shattering or anything, but I really like the take on Charisma I found at the World of Kyri website (http://www.starguild.freeserve.co.uk/frp/). I hope the author doesn't mind me reposting it here.

Hey harp! Thanks for quoting my site man! This is the first time I've ever seen it done, and warms the cockles of my heart

 

[Al]

Well, with a good DM and good roleplayers, low Charisma becomes a severe handicap.
In my current campaign, for a change, I'm a player (as opposed to DM) and even I react very differently to Charisma. My character has Charisma 14 and talks almost exclusively to the Charisma 15 cleric- we're sort of co-leaders. She pays lip service and just about acknowledges the Charisma 8 rogue, although avoids talking to him unless necessary. As for the Charisma 3 barbarian (that's right- 3) she barely even acknowledges him. Indeed, for a long while she even refused to let him into the party and is extremely loath to work with him. We infiltrated the mansion of the evil cult, and guess who was left outside ('We're not bringing that oaf in'). Low Charisma is a handicap.
When I DM, I go even more overboard. NPCs generally assume that the character with the highest Charisma is party leader and react appropriately. They set them the quests and the like, and pretty much ignore the 'grunts' of low Charisma (who they generally also assume to be stupid unless they are wizards or similar). Shopkeepers generally charge low Charisma characters higher prices and vice versa. And that's just the roleplay elements. Once one factored in the mechanical side of Charisma, with Bluff rolls and the like, only the most ardent dungeon-hack makes Charisma a dump stat. To the vast majority of campaigns, Charisma is required to make Diplomacy, Bluff and Gather Information checks. Neither is having one high Cha character good enough. Suspicious NPCs will grill the least Charismatic character to find the truth, even if most will just accept the word of the slick bard irrespective of his 'lackeys'.
Whoever said Charisma was useles?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The best way to make a stat important is to force making use of it.

If you want the characters to have high Strength (all my spellcasters will probably consider Strength the Dump Stat), then force them to fight in melee, or break doors.
If you want the characters to have high Dex, than have them need to make some difficult stunts or fighting with ranged weapons..
[...]
If you want the characters to have high Charisma, then have them discuss, haggle, bluff, taunt or intimidate.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Lord Vangarel]

It's easy to see the disadvantages of a low Strength to a high Strength, or the other stats except for Charisma. What I'd like is some way of demonstrating that Charisma can be equally important and not just the stat where the lowest score goes.

For example, if a character has a low Strength they know that every time they make an attack roll they will have a lower bonus to hit and damage than if they had a high Strength. If the same question is asked for Charisma then what are the disadvantages or advantages?

The reason I asked the question in the first place was because the players in my campaign tend to dump on Charisma unless the character requires the stat and everyone's replies have helped point out where Charisma could be used.

Every stat could be shown to have at least one use but Charisma is, and has always been, the poor cousin. For example:

Str - hit and damage
Con - hitpoints, Fort save
Dex - armour class, Reflex save, Initiative
Int - skill points
Wis - Will Save
Cha - Social Interaction

Looking at the above everything but Charisma seems to have a direct game effect so it's no wonder when the player creating a character says "So I don't talk to the monsters so good, but at least I kill them quicker!".

I'm going to make a conscious effort to include a lot of the ideas discussed in my game sessions from now on. Anyone else have any ideas to add to the pile?

 

[LostSoul]

Looking at the above everything but Charisma seems to have a direct game effect so it's no wonder when the player creating a character says "So I don't talk to the monsters so good, but at least I kill them quicker!".

That's only true if you are only planning on talking to monsters. Award high-Cha PCs by giving them a lot more attention and respect than low-Cha PCs.

 

[wolff96]

Re: Re: will saves man, will saves

This was mentioned earlier in the thread, and the problem with that is that then there is nothing to prevent wisdom from becoming the dump stat.

Um... no.

Wisdom is used in a lot of very important skills. Heal, Innuendo, Intuit Direction, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Wilderness Lore are ALL based on Wisdom. Sense Motive, Spot, and Listen are among the most-used skills of all.

Wisdom is used as the casting stat for clerics, druids, rangers, and paladins.

Wisdom sets the AC bonus for monks.

Even without the Save Bonus coming from Wisdom, that stat has a lot going for it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, a fly in the ointment when "roleplaying" low CHA is that a high level character might have actually purchased the skills to overcome it. Imagine a half-orc rogue with a Cha of 3, but by 10th level he has bought 10 ranks in gather information and diplomacy... those DM's who *always* regard the lower charisma character less might want to consider how they would handle this kind of situation, where training more than compensates for poor attributes.

I bring this up because all the other attributes are directly important for something *as well as* certain skills. If Cha is *only* important as a modifier for certain skills, then at higher levels it could become less significant.

One interesting idea might be to use Cha for the initiative bonus (instead of Dex). Someone who is more generally "in command of the situation", who is used to acting first while others follow. Someone with the strength of their convictions to take actions quickly and decisively. After all, Dex still has dodge bonus, missile bonus and Reflex save going for it...

(in fact, I might even consider using that in my next campaign...)

Cheers