Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Bagpuss]

I think the 20th levels and rate of advancement, welcomes campaign length adventures, perhaps not published in one block like Shackled City but in 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20 chunks for example.

I imagine most DM's that buy adventures do so because they don't have time to plan their own, due to other commitments but then have trouble sometimes making one short adventure mesh with the next one. Campaign length adventures would remove all those issues, they could also warrent hardback, or boxed set realeases with maps and the like which folks seem to like.

 

[The Shaman]

Unfortunately, over the past few years most of the d20 publishers decided that it was better for their business to compete directly with us, and abandoned adventures in favor of sourcebooks of the sort we already make (and make better than anyone else).

I find the unbridled arrogance of WotC employees so off-putting.

 

[Psion]

I think this topic has come up before. To recount the astute observation from last time (Chris was the source of one or more of these iirc):

• Those "not competing with WotC" by making adventures would be "competing with Dungeon." A hard act to follow, cost and presentation wise.
• Modules aren't where the money are. Beings that third party publishers don't have the market presence of WotC to begin with, they would be competing for an even MORE miniscule segment of the market.
• Necromancer and Goodman games are SURVIVORS of the module market. Others that tried their hand at it couldn't keep up and moved onto other things or out of the business entirely.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Um, that's odd, because the truism I heard a lot of publishers saying after about, oh . . . *checks watch* 2002 was that adventures and campaign settings don't sell. Maybe all the folks were wrong, but if we look at two of the biggest d20 publishers - Mongoose and Green Ronin - they don't put out many adventures, do they?

I think the unfair comparison with the "adventures don't sell" thing, is that most of that early stuff was utter garbage. It's not that people don't want adventures IMO, it's that the barrier of entry was so low, people stopped buying all kinds of products.

It'd be interesting to see how Black Sails Over Freeport sold for instance.

But, as Pramas said on another thread some time ago, adventure's from everywhere must compete with Dungeon, and I think that's hard to do on a small scale. I still think adventures that were imaginative and attractive would sell, but I think the cash return on the Time & Energy investment makes it not worth it for the larger companies. So it's kind of a catch-22.

Still, the antagonism that seems to be brewing sometimes between WotC and some of the D20 companies, really has been boiling over lately, judging by past threads. I've crossed a couple companies off the Buy List because of their responses to discussions.

 

[Psion]

I find the unbridled arrogance of WotC employees so off-putting.

Heh. If they were "doing it better than anyone else", one wonders why they felt the need to bring in a bunch of freelancers for their next generation of books.

Books which, for the first time in a while, have me anxious in anticipation of supplemental rulebooks.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Well, my response is pretty much unprintable according to the board's rules.

But I think it's odd that Charles Ryan would be surprised that people might choose to pull a chair up to the buffet rather than knife fight over the scraps beneath the table.


Patrick Y.

 

[loki44]

I agree with all of Crothian's posts here, which is why I made him one of my choices as an Ennie Judge. I've got much love for Goodman and Necromancer and WOTC. I've bought adventures from all of them (almost all of which I'll never use btw). It's all good. And Mr. Ryan can say whatever he wants. Who cares? A little competitive energy never hurt anything. I hope his comments spur an adventure publishing craze like we haven't seen since the days Judge's Guild had an official D&D license.

Grognards for diaglo! Please vote.....

 

[2WS-Steve]

Perhaps what Chris thinks is funny is that a bunch of companies did try sticking to adventures at the beginning and, other than Necromancer, struggled compared to the companies that went straight after the sourcebooks in the style of what WotC makes.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Mongoose's Quint series funded a bunch of the major license acquisitions it made.

 

[The Shaman]

But I think it's odd that Charles Ryan would be surprised that people might choose to pull a chair up to the buffet rather than knife fight over the scraps beneath the table.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Dragonblade]

The areas where 3rd parties excel, are those areas neglected by WotC. Original settings, d20 variants, that sort of thing.

I don't think Charles Ryan meant to say that WotC is better than all third party publishers. I think he meant that no other 3rd party publisher is going to be able to compete with WotC in terms of making core 3.5 compatible sourcebooks. Which is basically true.

However, although what Ryan says is sort of true, there is a critical fact missing. Most d20 publishers don't even really compete with WotC anymore. Its easy to be the number 1 publisher of generic 3.5 D&D sourcebooks when no other publisher is making those books anymore.

The survivors of the d20 bust have become quite specialized and focused. I go to Green Ronin for M&M or to AEG for Spycraft, or Mongoose for Conan. These are great products filling a niche that WotC is not.

And when people talk about adventures selling or not selling, I think a distinction needs to be made between modules and campaigns. Modules don't sell. But I think there is a seriously massive untapped market out there for complete level 1 to 20 (or beyond) campaigns. But let me put a qualifier on that. I don't think any old hodge podge of adventures from El Cheapo games will work. Gamers want high quality. And they want to be able to play a continuous story from low level on into high level without a drop in quality.

My group could care less about your average module, but when Shackled City came out, we were all over that. Shackled City is a busy DM's dream come true. Well written, well edited, glossy full color pages, professional maps, and even player handouts! This is how you sell adventures!!

Is it expensive? Yes, but worth every penny and it allows us to take our PCs from level 1 to 20 all with minimal work on the part of the DM. And even better, is the adventures are somewhat episodic becuase they came out of Dungeon magazine. This means that if you take a month off from DMing, you don't have to reread the entire freaking book to refamiliarize yourself with everything. You just reread the adventure you stopped on. Brilliant!

I truly hope Paizo has started something big here.