Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Uder]

No. What I was saying is that I don't know if WotC's intent from the get-go was to essentially produce a new edition or whether that was an unintentional by-product of the design process. I know from my time at WotC that the original 3E plan did not involve a revision in 2003. That was decided on later. So did the folks in charge say, "We really need to do a new edition but there's no way the fanbase will go for it 2003. Let's call it 3.5 and pretend it's more of a revision than a new edition"? Or did the design process start with the goal of a revision and just go too far? I'd say the latter more likely than the former, but either one is possible.

Ah. I see. That makes a lot more sense and doesn't sound so paranoid. In your post "what happened" sounded like you were talking about the d20 correction.

Well, as it turned out, their decision was good for this gamer. I don't know about all gamers, or the game industry, but I appreciated the quality of the update, and the support for the game since then.

An aside, and something I haven't seen your company do: One thing I didn't appreciate was companies that tried to obfuscate whether something was 3.0 or 3.5. I've bought 3.0 material since then, but tried to stick with 3.5 (less work). But when something has "Compatible with 3.5" emblazoned across the bottom of the cover, yet still includes rules artifacts from 3.0 Makes me feel like a sucker, and nobody wants to feel like a sucker.

 

[The Shaman]

I personally think Mr Mearls has hit it quite well. The d20 crowd seems to be cranking out variant games time and time again and, well, I don't want to play a variant game. I want to play DnD.

I'm playing, or interested in playing in the future, five different d20 games, and none of them are called Dungeons and Dragons.

What some people consider reinventing the wheel I consider novel approaches that satisfy more of my interests as a gamer.

 

[Hussar]

I'm playing, or interested in playing in the future, five different d20 games, and none of them are called Dungeons and Dragons.

What some people consider reinventing the wheel I consider novel approaches that satisfy more of my interests as a gamer.

And, that's perfectly fine, for you. However, I would point to WOTC's sales and wonder if you represent the majority or minority of gamers. I know that there are people who want to take novel approaches. The fact that these alternative games sell is proof of that. I also have a pretty good idea that there are a large number of gamers out there who are fairly content with playing DnD and aren't terribly interested (for whatever reason) in other games. A company which only caters to the alternative games crowd is catering to a fairly small group IMHO. The number of people who want to play DND outweighs by a fairly large amount the number of people who want ot play Iron Heroes for example.

It doesn't matter how good your product is, if you don't have a market to sell to. I think Charles Ryan and Mike Mearls have made a very good point. The d20 publishers have been cranking out a large number of alternative games of late - the sheer number of licensed products shows that. That certainly caters to those who are looking for something new. I'm just not sure how much sense it makes to cater to a much smaller group than to try to sell to a larger market. If it works, great! But, really, how many variant d20 systems do we need? The troubles the d20 publishers are apparently having are not entirely WOTC's fault. Publishing books for a very small audience guarantees that you don't sell a lot of books. IMHO, those who are looking for variant games are a much smaller audience than those who wish to continue playing DnD. Granted, it's quite possible that I'm wrong.

This thread did get me thinking about something. Charles Ryan's comment about quality of product. I certainly don't want to argue the merits of his comment, but, a thought occurs. I'm playing in the World's Largest Dungeon and really loving it. But, I did have to plunk down a hundred bucks for this book. What did that get me? It got me a couple of forums on the AEG site that never see an AEG representative. It got me a massive thread at En World with some AEG reps popping in from time to time with ideas. That's about it. No official errata - only a fan made one. No official supplements - again only fan made ones.

If I cranked out a hundred bucks for a WOTC product, what kind of support could I expect? I'm thinking considerably more than what I got from AEG. Errata at the very least. Web supplements quite probably. An art gallery quite likely. Look at the recent Undermountain support and I think you'll see what I mean.

So, is it unfair to say that WOTC produces the best products? I don't know. I do know that WOTC certainly supports their products to a very great degree. When we talk about this or that book, I don't think that the after support can be ignored. If book X is the greatest thing since sliced bread but gets absolutely no added support, does that make it better, in the end, than a book which is perhaps not as good, but is fully errata'd, has a ready made adventure or two, has a couple of extra goodies added and will likely see official (or at least company supported unofficial) support for the next few years?

 

[amethal]

The upshot of all this is that two years after 3.5 there are maybe a half dozen print publishers still supporting d20 in a meaningful sense. I would not be surprised if even this small number drops next year.

From my own, purely selfish viewpoint, I am glad there are only half a dozen print publishers left.

Assuming we are thinking of the same half dozen, my respect for each of those companies - especially Green Ronin - has grown considerably this year as they have all produced very interesting and/or high quality products. I'd be sorry to lose any of them.

We don't have "lesser" companies clogging up the print market and in some cases giving the d20 industry as a whole a bad name.

On the other hand, it feels like there are hundreds of companies out there producing PDFs. These products are cheap, concise, have no delivery costs and don't take up any shelf space. I buy loads of them, and I don't care if some of them turn out not to be what I wanted - I can afford to waste a couple of dollars every now and then, and it makes the real gems even more satisfying.

2005 has been a great year for d20 / OGL products. I can't wait to see what's coming out in 2006.

 

[philreed]

I think this is the strength of PDFs - you can give a topic as much space as it needs, not the amount dictated by the economics of printing a book. This is a big challenge facing print d20 publishers, IMO.

And this is primarily the model I've built my work on. The ability to produce 4, 5, 6, or 50 pages on a specific subject -- and then properly label the work -- is most definitely the single greatest strength of the PDF market. Unfortunately, a number of people still feel that they would be better off buying 100 or 200 page products even if all they want is a short section of that product.

That said, I do see gradual shifts in attitude as people begin to understand why I produce such short PDFs.

It's nice to see that someone from WotC understands how PDFs can best be used.

 

[Numion]

Please. Anyone who tells you that 3.0 material is useless when used with 3.5 is trying to sell you something. I switched to 3.5 pretty soon after it was released and I still use almost all of my 3.0 books, and still buy many products that were originally released in the 3.0 era (my gaming budget does not allow me to buy all books released all the time, so I often end up buying a title a year or two after it was initially released).

I agree. It even works both ways - I never switched to 3.5, and I still constantly use 3.5 Dungeon adventures and WotC sourcebooks. All the numbers might not be correct, but the things still mean the same. Believe it or not, 3.0 and 3.5 rangers can co-exist

 

[Rasyr]

2006 will be an interesting year.

The first thing that flashed through my mind upon reading that was the ancient chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times". Was that what you meant?

 

[BrooklynKnight]

On the WOTC and the Ennies stuff...

I belive, about 2 years ago, I remember someone (may have been someone at wotc or not, after 2 years i dont remember clearly) telling me that the reason they dont enter the Ennies is the following.

WOTC is "supposed" to be the best of the best when it comes to D&D and RPG games. Top of the line. WOTC has far more resources to put into a product then any 3rd party developer. IT could be considered "unfair" for them to enter, because their increased resources gives them an edge and "skews" the results.

On the OTHER hand, if they were to lose, it would be a huge blow to WOTC and an ebarassment. While they're supposed to be the top of the line, the best of the best, THE primary brand that everyone associates with, having a clear winner in a 3rd party publisher would be embarassing for the company.

To comment on my own, WOTC doesnt NEED the Ennies to claim that D&D is the best RPG in the world. Quite frankly, it is. It has the longest/biggest market reach/recognition, its spawned entire cults and gamer cultures. And its a part of mainstream pop media. Something no 3rd party company has achieved yet. D&D is on par with Starwars and Comic Book superheroes in terms of recognition. Nearly everyone has HEARD about D&D even if to them its just "that game geeks play".

They have nothing to gain by entering the Ennies, and a lot to lose. Being able to say "Ennies winner 2005" on one of their products means nothing in the world wide market......yet.

However, each year the Ennies grows and matures. Each year many 3rd party companies also grow and mature. When it comes to pop culture, White Wolf would come second in terms of recognition (IMO). Perhaps, maybe, 5 or 10 years from today, some of our favorite 3rd party publishers (Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, Malhavor Press, etc etc etc) will reach some sort of plateu were they get noticed BEYOND Gencon, beyond any gamer society and enter mainstream media.

When these companies (and the Ennies) grow to become known enough, worldwide that they could have an effect on WOTC sales, maybe WOTC will change its mind.

And to close, of all the companies listed here and above, I belive Green Ronin has the BEST chance to breach that barrier of pop culture Icon. Mutants and Masterminds is keyed to one of the biggest pop culture themes in the world....comic books and super heroes. If by some chance GR managed to snag a Marvel or DC license...they would slowly climb the steps to reach that barrier. But then again, what the hell do i know.

 

[Maggan]

Actually, IMO, the glut of 2.0 products on the market at the time caused a downswing, which led to 3.5 (2 years earlier than originally planned), which led to another downswing (at least for the remainder of the year in which it was released).

Just checking, did you mean to write "3.0" or was the channels choked with 2nd ed stuff? That makes sense, to me, but 2e material still i circulation doesn't and then I would like to know more, so I'm just asking to get the point clarified.

Cheers!

/M

 

[Numion]

ENnies reflect quite highly the opinion of ENWorld members. The opinion of ENWorlders does not reflect that highly the opinion of your average D&D player. Hence, ENnies are not that important for WotC.

They aim to do products to sell to the masses, and that means less innovation and risky ideas than some PDF firm will crank out. However, those innovative ideas are what win seem to please a lot of the folks that end up as ENnie judges. Not high production values and useability in average joes campaign. So I can see why WotC wouldnt obther with the ENnies.