Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Belen]

And Treasures of Freeport.

Plus I know that there's more Freeport stuff coming. From here it looks pretty well supported.

Again, I do not count PDFs as support.

 

[Rasyr]

Just checking, did you mean to write "3.0" or was the channels choked with 2nd ed stuff? That makes sense, to me, but 2e material still i circulation doesn't and then I would like to know more, so I'm just asking to get the point clarified.

Oops, yeah meant 3.0 - will go back and fix that typo...

 

[Mouseferatu]

Again, I do not count PDFs as support.

Hey, Belen? Please don't take this the wrong way, but...

That sounds like your problem more than that of the companies in question.

If you want to put forth the complaint "Companies don't offer the kind of support I like," that would be valid. But claiming there's no support, and then saying, "Oh, I don't count that as support" sort of undermines your position.

The simple truth is, companies who offer PDF support for a line are, well, offering support for the line. It may be true that it's not the best way to support the line. It may be true that they're not reaching all the customers they could. It may be true that a lot of people don't like using PDFs. (Heck, I write PDFs between larger contracts, and I'm still not a huge customer of the PDF market.) All of those are arguable.

But just dismissing them as, essentially, not existing is no more accurate than to say "WotC never published modules," and then when someone points out that they did, saying "Oh, they had blue covers, so they don't count."

Okay, maybe it's not quite that absurd... But it's on the same continuum.

 

[Hussar]

Again, I do not count PDFs as support.

I'm curious, why not? If someone is savvy enough to find the d20 publishers and buy from them, surely they are savvy enough to type in the link that's posted in most of the books and find the pdf's. Granted, I'm not one to buy pdf's typically, I want the book in my greedy little hands, but, I would think that a mess of pdf's for something certainly do count as support.

 

[Belen]

If 2002 was the height of the glut, I believe we are approaching the nadir. The Green Ronin d20 strategy in 2004-2005 was to hang tough, keep putting out the quality books we are known for, watch a lot of our competition fade away, and then reap the benefits. Well, here we are, still supporting d20 with new lines like Thieves' World (and product #2 of that line is an adventure no less) and even doing a new d20 Modern setting (Damnation Decade), but we have yet to see the Great d20 Rebound.

2006 will be an interesting year.

I think the PDF market is siphoning off the more experienced gamers. If you add that to the massive game store closings and the current price of gas, then you will find your reason. I think that it is safe to assume that a number of the stores that closed probably embraced d20 and ended up with large inventories that that could not move because of the glut. Those stores that survived probably concentrate on WOTC, WW, and SJG with maybe some WHFRP.

The problem also lies with the fact that GAMA is a joke. They are not effective in promoting the hobby. There is no organization that is effective and there needs to be.

 

[Belen]

Hey, Belen? Please don't take this the wrong way, but...

That sounds like your problem more than that of the companies in question.

If you want to put forth the complaint "Companies don't offer the kind of support I like," that would be valid. But claiming there's no support, and then saying, "Oh, I don't count that as support" sort of undermines your position.

The simple truth is, companies who offer PDF support for a line are, well, offering support for the line. It may be true that it's not the best way to support the line. It may be true that they're not reaching all the customers they could. It may be true that a lot of people don't like using PDFs. (Heck, I write PDFs between larger contracts, and I'm still not a huge customer of the PDF market.) All of those are arguable.

But just dismissing them as, essentially, not existing is no more accurate than to say "WotC never published modules," and then when someone points out that they did, saying "Oh, they had blue covers, so they don't count."

Okay, maybe it's not quite that absurd... But it's on the same continuum.

Not at all. By and large, Freeport has ceased to exist in the last few years. Black Sails was never followed up. PDFs only benefit die hard fans who stuck with the city and I am willing to bet that few did. PDFs support like 5,000 people...maybe. For most people, they have moved on to other things and other places.

As a Wizards delegate, I have traveled among the stores in my area. Out of 10 stores in the triangle, only one carries the Anniversary edition. Not one store has any other Freeport product.

While GR will start support of the city again, it is more of a relaunch. That is great to get new customers, but does nothing to really help the existing fanbase because they allowed the city to wither away in the first place.

PDFs are not support. 2 PDF adventures after 2 years is not support. It is more like table scraps.

Again, I love GR and I buy just about any d20 product they produce. I even work like a dog to carry around a list of new titles for GR and a few other d20 companies when I make my rounds to the local stores and I strongly suggest that they carry these titles.

However, 3rd party companies have a serious support issue. They just do not provide a decent level of existing support for their d20 lines. And I will not go into their lack of marketing.

 

[Belen]

I'm curious, why not? If someone is savvy enough to find the d20 publishers and buy from them, surely they are savvy enough to type in the link that's posted in most of the books and find the pdf's. Granted, I'm not one to buy pdf's typically, I want the book in my greedy little hands, but, I would think that a mess of pdf's for something certainly do count as support.

Yet we're not talking about a mess of PDFs. We're discussing 2 PDF adventures after a 2 year absence. Even then, GRs website is not very user-friendly when it comes to revealing upcoming products etc, but that is another discussion.

 

[Psion]

Not at all. By and large, Freeport has ceased to exist in the last few years. Black Sails was never followed up. PDFs only benefit die hard fans who stuck with the city and I am willing to bet that few did. PDFs support like 5,000 people...maybe. For most people, they have moved on to other things and other places.

I suspect that if Freeport products were selling 5000 copies each, we would be seeing more print freeport products. If you go below that threshhold, PDF turns out to be the only viable way to support a line without printing and warehousing costs eating your lunch.

Many companies would -- and have -- walked away from such a situation. I think it shows enormous dedication to their product line and their fans that Green Ronin is finding novel ways to still keep the line going despite the current market conditions.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm curious, why not?

Some folks have said that 50% of all gamers do not use the internet. ENWorld (where PDF's are trumpeted more than maybe anywhere) is at the most 1% of all gamers, if the numbers that have been bandied about are accurate. The best PDF's sell like the worst hardcovers, and most sell a fraction of that. I'd wager a guess that 90% of all gamers don't even know that PDF's exist in any meaningful sense. Support that only reaches a tiny fraction of the market is very close to no support.

 

[orangefruitbat]

You describe my situation as well. Too many monster manuals, prestige classes, feats, rules, etc. I can't use both Fields of Blood and Cry Havoc - it's one or the other, but somehow I have both. Quite frankly, new D20 products (or even non-D20 rpgs) are a hard sell right now. I can't use it all and I'm running out of space in my house. I've actually sold off several boxes of stuff.

So what am I buying? Adventures for one (and a subscription to Dungeon). I've had very good success with Necromancer Games (though I haven't picked up anything since Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopetamia). And products that I think are truly exceptional (as opposed to merely good). Iron Heros and Conan made the list - I love Conan for the setting and Iron Heros for the rules. I run both with D20 adventures (suitably adapted). I purchased the Wilderlands box set simply because of it's amazing detail, and Castle Yggsberg because it's by the master (and also a pleasure to read). When it comes out, Ptolus is a maybe, but I like what I've seen so far. I also picked up WFRP 2nd edition, because I was such a big fan of v.1 (though my Enemy Within campaign fizzled ). Nothing from WOTC since the DMG2 (it was good, but in retrosect, I wouldn't get it again). Possibly Heros of Horror, but I'm still skeptical. And maybe some more miniatures - I love those little guys.

I'm inclined to think that the sluggishness of the d20 market has more to
do with the volume of currently-available material than the lack of companies doing adventures.

I have shelves bowing under the weight of d20 books. I have a half-dozen boxes containing yet more roleplaying books, and I have at least one pile of books tucked away in a storage closet out of the way. I will never again make use of a large proportion of these books. Quite simply, I do not need to ever again buy a d20 book, without ever having to fear that I'll run out of material to use.

As a consequence of this, I have become rather more picky in what I buy. In fact, I essentially no longer even look at a book that isn't from Green Ronin, Malhavoc or, of course, Wizards. There are two exceptions: I'm interested in the Babylon 5 line from Mongoose (but haven't actually bought anything in months), and will look at the occasional product I see recommended here. I'm aware that this means I'm missing some real gems, but I don't have a lot of time to seek out good products, nor any huge incentive to do so, and I don't have a FLGS where I can browse such things at leisure (sadly, following a house move )

The one area where I am interested in new product are 'disposable' items like adventure modules. However, even here, an adventure would have to have some sort of hook to interest me, as I subscribe to Dungeon, and so again have more material than I will ever use.

I don't know how typical I am of the consumers in the d20 market. However, given the size of the market, if even a small number of people are in the same position, that could have a significant effect on the whole, especially with so many small companies competing for the same small pool of customers.

(As regards Charles Ryan's comments, I'll say only this: I am very interested to hear more about this 'long term solution' that Wizards are working on.)