Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Vigilance]

I'm not the only person citing a lack of support for purchasing decisions.

Lack of support and providing free SRDs are totally seperate issues.

I dont think you do realize that when you ask for a core book to be given away free as a SRD you are removing the only reason supporting a line is financially viable for a game company.

The reason most companies continue to support lines is to sell more core rulebooks. That's where the money is.

Support products don't sell well, so a company will usually hope to make a small profit on the support book itself, while driving the sales of an already successful book higher.

This is especially useful to continue selling a book (and convincing retailers to continue stocking that book) after the initial 30 days, when most RPG books do the bulk of their sales.

Chuck

 

[Rasyr]

The simple fact is, the information is already out there, the fact that the companies won't put it out in a format under their control is the problem.

Interesting choice of words. Saying that it is a "problem" that companies won't give away the core elements of their products for free.

So, when WotC said "no need to buy 3.5, you can download the SRD for free." they were lying? It's really only for the publishers? In that case, someone might want to tell WotC, because they foolishly made it available to us peons too.

Hmm... I don't recall WotC ever saying that. Then again, in regards to this issue, you cannot really compare WotC to any other company. They are in a class all by themselves.

I mainly game online, but even in person it's a pain to not have a resource seperate. Unless you're suggesting I photocopy it? That'd be Wrong.

There are laws about "Fair Use". Personally, I see nothing wrong with copying a section of a product and giving that to another person to use if they don't have the product. For electronic products, I can easily see, and accept a person copying portions of the PDF they purchased to hand out to their players. The operative word here is "portion" as in not the whole thing, and not the majority of the thing.

Kind of glossed over the part about me BUYING the book if the SRD was there? Possibly you're just replying to someone else and didn't seperate it from my quote.

No, I was replying to you. However, your statement wasn't all that clear, so I replied to the overall impression I received from that last portion.

You've got companies doing 100% OGC material, companies which say that their sales are mostly in the 3 months after release. Companies that already have PDF's of the same products. It would be quite simple for core rules to be provided in a usable/ no frills format 3-6 months after the release. I'm also not advocating making EVERY product free, just as WotC doesn't add everything to the SRD.

Except that while print versions may have a limited lifespan (and this is an artificial lifespan imposed mostly by distributors who want and promote the frontlist syndrome), PDF versions have no lifespan, and continue to sell well past those time marks you gave. Thus, putting out a free no-frills version only undercuts and kills those sales.

Perhaps you missed the thread where Phil Reed talked about doing this. He put out a product, and a few months later put out a SRD for it. The result? All sales for that product died, and it had been a steady selling product up until then.

Has the COMPLETE D20 Modern SRD reduced sales of D20 Modern books? WotC does it fine. Other companies assume it'd be bad, so they don't do it.

Does that "complete" SRD contain stuff from every book? I doubt it. Nor does WotC put information from any but a few core products under the SRD on the fantasy side of things. They have not placed anything from any product under the SRD in a long time, not even the material from Unearthed Arcana which is almost fully OGC (very few, if any of their other products use the OGL in any form, not even their core books - subsets of the core books have been placed under the OGL, and included in the SRD, but the books themselves are NOT OGL).

If the money is that tight, perhaps RPG's shouldn't be their sole business. But, I do appreciate the work they do (for the most part) and don't mind paying the exorbitant prices books get nowadays (again, for the most part).

Money is not always that tight, but at the moment it likely is, as there is a major downturn over the past several months of rpg sales (for ALL companies) according to distributors.

What I meant was, I expect support for a product, and I have a specific idea of what that support should/would/could be. COmpanies in response tell me they'd go bankrupt for supporting their products in such a manner. "We're too busy making new books to update <blah class> to 3.5", is not the answer I want to hear, and will affect my purchase of future products.

Up above, you mentioned products having a limited shelf life. And here you are complaining because companies also believe that and won't upgrade a product because they feel that upgrading it won't reset that shelf life timer (which it won't, for the most part).

Remember, a company's idea of support is going to be based primarily on economics first, and then on the company's desires

Oh, and it isn't always about budget. It is also about time and the manpower involved. Most RPG companies, (WotC being the MAJOR exception here) are small, having only a few people on staff. The time and effort spent on "upgrading" products has to be taken into account.

"Let's see, we can either get this new book finished and watch it sell very well, or upgrade this old book that hasn't sold at all in the past 2 years and hope that it sells a few copies." Guess which one he will pick? The one he is sure will sell well, or the one that might sell a few copies?

As I mentioned above, I'm not saying I'll use a pirate copy, I'm saying that they're already out there, so decrying "giving it away for free" doesn't work for me, given someone has already provided a complete copy.

You do realize that companies do NOT want those priated copies out there? Saying that they should "give it away for free" because some sleazebag is doing it illegally is not a good response. All that is going to do it to tick said companies off.

Five naval combat rulebooks for DnD. What other gaming system would see five different rule books covering EXACTLY the same subject? Wasn't the point of the OGL so that companies didn't do this? And it's not like naval campaigns are mainstream gaming. This is a pretty small niche.

In addition, as I write this, I know that at least three of those rules books are out of print. Essentially, the companies that wrote those rules will never make a dime out of those books again (in almost all likelyhood). How could it hurt for one of them, say, Mongoose, to put out a Naval Revised SRD which included the SRD plus Seas of Blood?

Who is going to pay for the person who does the work? Who is going to cover his other duties while he is doing this? Those are the ways in which a company is hurt by doing this. It takes time and manpower to accomplish, which pulls somebody away from something else (which quite likely will make a profit).

Or, better yet, contact someone like Sovelier Sage or the guys at the Hypertext SRD and hand them the rtf files. Ask them to add a section onto their website for a Mongoose Naval SRD Supplement. I'm pretty sure they'd jump at it.

Right, and if the product handed over was not 100% OGC, then the company has to have somebody go through and make sure that they did not include PI in what they put online. Time and manpower quite likely better spent elsewhere.

I could see this having three effects:

a) Other companies could then start producing books based on the Supplemented SRD's without having to reprint the entire material from whatever book they drew it from. As it stands now, if I want to make a book with a PrC from Scarred Lands (for example) I either have to use up a page or two reprinting the PrC or I have to make my buyers angry for not including the material.

Sorry, but wrong. The PrC would still have to be reprinted even if there was an SRD with the material in it. It is an extrememly bad practice to require customers to look elsewhere (other books, online, etc..) for material that is used in a product. Given the fact that the vast majority of gamers are not actually online, this means that the product will end up nearly worthless.

b) Increased lifespan for 3.5. By greatly beefing up the SRD, you increase the number of people who will use it, thus meaning that more people will stick with 3.5 when 4e eventually comes out. This is definitely a win for the d20 crowd who lose out the hardest when a new edition is released.

Sorry, but again wrong. As mentioned above, the vast majority of gamers are not online in any meaningful way. This means that they couldn't care less if there is some master SRD out there or not. It is quite likely that 4e will not be released under the OGL at all. There is a possibility that it may be released under a more restrictive license. In fact, by beefing up the SRD, it could have the effect of pushing WotC into releasing 4e sooner than planned.

Remember the OGC Repository that Mearls suggested several weeks ago? Remember the reaction that publishers had towards it? A beefed up SRD will not increase the lifespan of 3.5, if anything, it will kill it as more publishers move away from it and/or use much more restrictive declarations.

c) Provide a great deal of advertising. By having a ((Company Name)) Supplemented SRD, you reach out to many more potential buyers that might otherwise completely ignore your books since they don't know you exist.

Sorry, but I think that this one is wrong as well. As Phil learned the hard way, releasing an SRD (for smaller publishers at least) kills sales, not generates them. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

d) Greatly increase the chance that 4e will be OGL. As it stands, WOTC has no real incentive to make 4e OGL since they're the only ones making the rules available to users. Sure, OGC is useable by other publishers, but, then again, it isn't other publishers who buy your books.

Sorry, I don't see it this way either. Part of the idea behind the OGL was to make other publishers buy your books in order to re-use your OGC, at least that seems to be the mind set of many publishers, and of the purpose of the design of the OGL (which does not require publishers to create a SRD of OGC - unlike the GPL which requires developers to freely distribute the source code of products using GPL code).

Again, I want to point out that Phil Reed tried to make an SRD out of one of his products and it killed all sales for that product. You do that on a larger scale, and it will kill sales on a larger scale. This in turn would reduce the chances of 4e being OGL as killing sales is not something a company really wants.

 

[Cam Banks]

You know, after I wrote that, the little voice in my head said "don't forget Sovereign Press", but it was getting late, and I didn't feel like editing it at that point, but you're right. I'm a DL fan, so I have a few of the books. I didn't like the 5th Age sourcebook as much, but the Bestiary and Towers of High Sorcery were really cool.

Holy Orders of the Stars is out now, and if you liked Towers, you should ilke this one. It's not era-specific, so it's just as useful for a War of the Lance or pre-Cataclysm game.

Doesn't seem like DL gets a lot of love among the EN World crowd, though.

Not really, no. It's a 21 year old setting and it has kender in it and the original modules are now considered by many to be an exercise in railroading, which turns many people off. It's a shame, because we do put a heck of a lot of work into the books. That's true of anybody, though, I think - in fact, one of the major issues I feel plagues the d20 market comes when the products are attached to a license or specific setting. There could be all kinds of good stuff in the book, but if you have no interest in the property to begin with, you won't bother taking a look.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Vocenoctum]

Lack of support and providing free SRDs are totally seperate issues.

I dont think you do realize that when you ask for a core book to be given away free as a SRD you are removing the only reason supporting a line is financially viable for a game company.

The reason most companies continue to support lines is to sell more core rulebooks. That's where the money is.

I'd be surprised if the difference in print runs is that large for the D20 Companies. Perhaps Core's sell double, for popular systems maybe triple. For D&D maybe 10 times, but everyone agrees that WotC is on a different scale. By putting the rules material of the core book in a usable, no frills format, I'd say people are more likely to buy continueing materal for the gameline, because they have access to the variant core rules.

For example, I like the flavor of some of the Swashbuckling Adventures supplements, and have bought them. I lack the basic rules from their D20 Core book, but since I'm not going to use the setting, it's a waste of money for me to buy that core book. An SRD would greatly increase the usability of the supplements I do buy, and I'd probably buy more. Eventually I'd probably buy the Core just because.

Also, supplements in general are less work than the Core. While it's true the price tag for core books means the publisher gets more money from that book's sale, follow on sales for quicker to produce books is a continueing source of money.

Support products don't sell well, so a company will usually hope to make a small profit on the support book itself, while driving the sales of an already successful book higher.

This is especially useful to continue selling a book (and convincing retailers to continue stocking that book) after the initial 30 days, when most RPG books do the bulk of their sales.

Chuck

Support products don't sell as well because they're tied to the core book. The more products you require to make a supplement usable, the lower the actual sales of that product will be. Making an SRD free would cure some of that problem.

 

[Vocenoctum]

One effect it would have would be preventing the company from releasing the book in PDF form, which is a nice way for a company to make some extra cash in the long term from an out of print book.

Its a simple fact of economics- d20 companies are tightly budgeted operations that are usually struggling to stay out of the red. Most are beginning to release out of print books in PDF so they can continue to see a return on them.

Asking them not to do that- or even worse asking them to pay someone to make a "SRD" so the material would be free, is an expense the vast majority of RPG companies simply cant afford.

Chuck

Most of the companies are just now discovering the PDF for OOP market. I'm not advocating putting every product up, and no Product Identity would make it into the SRD.

So, yes, it would kill, or seriously hurt, the PDF market for largely rules oriented material. For PDF publishers, this would be a serious issue. For most of the bigger print folks, PDF is not a main source of income, but rather some notion they had for making additional income. I also think it's vastly overestimating the amount of revenue the PDF generates. Like any other form of advertising or support, the expense is part of gaining customers for the future, rather than gaining a direct buck for this transaction.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Interesting choice of words. Saying that it is a "problem" that companies won't give away the core elements of their products for free.Hmm... I don't recall WotC ever saying that. Then again, in regards to this issue, you cannot really compare WotC to any other company. They are in a class all by themselves.

Yes, they understand advertising, and engendering goodwill. I think the problem with quoting WotC's scope of operations is the idea that they make more, without the contingent that Hasbro EXPECTS more. Hasbro and WotC understand that some products and some effort (such as the WotC site offering free content) is an investment in the business, not a cash drain for greedy consumers that want "core elements for free".

Except that while print versions may have a limited lifespan (and this is an artificial lifespan imposed mostly by distributors who want and promote the frontlist syndrome),

I think the distribution system will really drive RPG's to a different system eventually. Mark up is consistant, so to increase revenue, the prices go up, driving more people to the online discount shops. In addition, distributors stocking practices and payment practices tend to fluctuate with company whim, making it hard to get stuff.
If companies were really worried about local gaming stores, they'd find a way for them to make a higher percentage of the sale price, along with the manufacturer, and a system that made it where Amazon/buy.com couldn't do the deep discounts at the same time. But, since the RPG industry is so fractiuous, I can't see that happening without some huge stimulus.

Perhaps you missed the thread where Phil Reed talked about doing this. He put out a product, and a few months later put out a SRD for it. The result? All sales for that product died, and it had been a steady selling product up until then.

I'd agree that PDF is in a different class for this discussion. But at the same time, how many PDF's make a great sale? If you sold 300 pdf's, you'd be a sales leader, if you sold 300 books, you'd be in bankruptcy. I'm one of those that doesn't do much with PDF's anymore, so my views there are biased.

Does Phil Reed build on past PDF's with future PDF's? If so, did products that built on this PDF given for free increase or decrease?

Does that "complete" SRD contain stuff from every book? I doubt it. Nor does WotC put information from any but a few core products under the SRD on the fantasy side of things.

The D20 Modern SRD is complete up to Future and Urban Arcana. Not sure if they'll add Past, Apocalypse or Cyberscape, or when.

The D&D SRD is less complete, rarely added to. I don't have any official quotes for why, but if they feel that the fantasy side is being taken advantage of, then I could understand why. Either way, I'm not asking that every book be added to say, a GR SRD. Just the core rules (or core rule differences) and perhaps a sampling of the elements from supplements that are "core" for future products.

Up above, you mentioned products having a limited shelf life. And here you are complaining because companies also believe that and won't upgrade a product because they feel that upgrading it won't reset that shelf life timer (which it won't, for the most part).

When purchasing something, I keep in mind the likeliness that the product will require Erratta, and the presence of past Erratta's from the company. If I've got a bunch of 3.0 products and the companies response to fan requests for a 3.5 update is "we don't have the time or effort to put into it" then it counts when I'm purchasing another product from them. If I can't count on the company supporting a product that may be flawed in some way, then I need to keep it in mind.

Remember, a company's idea of support is going to be based primarily on economics first, and then on the company's desires

Oh, and it isn't always about budget. It is also about time and the manpower involved. Most RPG companies, (WotC being the MAJOR exception here) are small, having only a few people on staff. The time and effort spent on "upgrading" products has to be taken into account.

WotC pays their employee's, some of the web updates and such are produced by freelancers. WotC understands that such things are a part of doing business. There is no magical pot of gold at Hasbro HQ, with which to pay for such things.


Other companies only see what's in front of them, they want (and need) the next product, so they keep moving forward. I've come to the opinion lately that a lot of the D20 companies have lost sight of the hobby.

You do realize that companies do NOT want those priated copies out there? Saying that they should "give it away for free" because some sleazebag is doing it illegally is not a good response. All that is going to do it to tick said companies off.

Do they simply close their eyes and say that there are no pirated copies? In case the point isn't clear, Free Fully Formated copies exist, the company should understand that. They can ignore that and discard old products (or try to turn a couple more dollars from PDF sales) or they can garner goodwill and continued sales by releasing some of the work under their own control. I'm not advocating theft of property, I'm merely raising the point that it's not a binary condition. They don't have the choice of "release material" or "never see material released". It's already there, and to ignore that condition and grumble about piracy is pointless.

 

[Vigilance]

Most of the companies are just now discovering the PDF for OOP market. I'm not advocating putting every product up, and no Product Identity would make it into the SRD.

So, yes, it would kill, or seriously hurt, the PDF market for largely rules oriented material. For PDF publishers, this would be a serious issue. For most of the bigger print folks, PDF is not a main source of income, but rather some notion they had for making additional income. I also think it's vastly overestimating the amount of revenue the PDF generates. Like any other form of advertising or support, the expense is part of gaining customers for the future, rather than gaining a direct buck for this transaction.

A) Your statement that "big publishers" arent in the PDF market is flat wrong. Green Ronin, Mongoose, Sword and Sorcery, Malhavoc, Fantasy Flight... if there's a "big" publisher that's not in the PDF market I am unaware of it.

B) Your statement about "the future" represents a fundamental lack of knowledge about how RPG companies operate. The "future" is next quarter for most RPG companies. For some it might be next year if they're very prosperous and stable.

The simple fact is, RPG companies need every revenue stream they can get.

C) Print sales have been trending downward, and the majority of sales are made in the short term. PDF sales are trending up and a well designed PDF product is "ever green". Barring something major (like 3.5 edition) it will sell forever.

All this adds up to making PDF vital to the survival of RPG companies in the current climate.

You can *wish* it wasnt like this. Heck I wish that too. But wishing doesn't make it so.

You're asking for something companies simply CANNOT (for the most part) afford to do.

You cant get blood out of a stone. Companies would go out of business doing what you're asking.

Chuck

 

[Vocenoctum]

All this adds up to making PDF vital to the survival of RPG companies in the current climate.

You can *wish* it wasnt like this. Heck I wish that too. But wishing doesn't make it so.

How much revenue does a PDF release bring in for someone like GR?

You're asking for something companies simply CANNOT (for the most part) afford to do.

You cant get blood out of a stone. Companies would go out of business doing what you're asking.

Chuck

Guardians of Order has had their Anime SRD online for a while now. Someone should mention to them that they're out of business, because they didn't get the memo.
The simple fact is, we don't know what would happen. The publishers think it'd ruin them, so they don't do it. Deriding the possibility as unworkable doesn't mean it's unworkable. Companies are making profit in the Status Quo, so that's where they'll remain.

 

[Michael Tree]

Support products don't sell as well because they're tied to the core book. The more products you require to make a supplement usable, the lower the actual sales of that product will be. Making an SRD free would cure some of that problem.

If someone wasn't interested enough in the core book to buy it, chances are that they wouldn't be interested in buying supplements for it either. You might gain a few sales of supplements, but probably not nearly enough to recoup the lost sales of your core rulebooks.

Atlas games tried what you're advocating a couple years ago, as an experiement. They released the 4th edition of Ars Magica as a free PDF. The first effect of that was that the sales of the rulebook plummetted to almost zero. What had been a slow but steady rate of sales disappeared virtually overnight. In addition, the sales on their supplement to that book didn't increase either. Atlas tried the sales theory you're advocating, and it was a dismal failure.

 

[philreed]

Guardians of Order has had their Anime SRD online for a while now. Someone should mention to them that they're out of business, because they didn't get the memo.

Trust me, they got the memo. Ask all of the staff that lost their jobs.

GOO is in very, very bad shape.