Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Vocenoctum]

Nice.

So if the company won't give it to you, you steal it.

Chuck

Totally missing the point. I don't buy Grim Tales because there's no SRD for me to share with my online players. I haven't pirated anything, otherwise why would I suggest that such a thing be made? I'd in fact already have it.

The simple fact is, the information is already out there, the fact that the companies won't put it out in a format under their control is the problem.

 

[Vocenoctum]

See, now that is part of the whole problem. You are looking at an SRD as "game support". Companies are seeing it as "free access to what I am trying to sell you", especially those companies that tend to make their products 100% OGC.

SRD's were never meant to be treated as game support. Such documents are meant for other publishers to use in creating new content, not as a free version of a product.

So, when WotC said "no need to buy 3.5, you can download the SRD for free." they were lying? It's really only for the publishers? In that case, someone might want to tell WotC, because they foolishly made it available to us peons too.

And nobody can share a book?

I mainly game online, but even in person it's a pain to not have a resource seperate. Unless you're suggesting I photocopy it? That'd be Wrong.

It is comments like this last one that really galvanizes publishers against free distribution of their works (via an SRD or an OGC Repository, etc..). The "I don't want to pay for it, so you should give it to me for free" mentality.

Kind of glossed over the part about me BUYING the book if the SRD was there? Possibly you're just replying to someone else and didn't seperate it from my quote.

Now, if companies did begin doing their own SRDs, do you know what would happen? That company would not ever do a product that was 100% OGC ever again. In fact, they would most likely release only the bare minimum into OGC (which would be effectively worthless as it would be the most minimal stat block that could be gotten away with, and not even the name of the (whatever it was) would be open content.

Not only that, but you would see a drastic reduction in release schedules. It takes time and effort to go through a manuscript and to pull out the open content. Time and effort that would otherwise be spent on other products. And once release schedules dropped, so would profits, and then you would see these companies go out of business.

You've got companies doing 100% OGC material, companies which say that their sales are mostly in the 3 months after release. Companies that already have PDF's of the same products. It would be quite simple for core rules to be provided in a usable/ no frills format 3-6 months after the release. I'm also not advocating making EVERY product free, just as WotC doesn't add everything to the SRD.

Has the COMPLETE D20 Modern SRD reduced sales of D20 Modern books? WotC does it fine.
Other companies assume it'd be bad, so they don't do it.

The folks that work at game companies (operative word being "company") want their company to make a profit so that they can do such exotic things as buy groceries and pay their rent. I don't know if you meant to have your post put across a certain attitude or not, and if you didn't, then I apologize, but the impression that I received in the last part of your post was that the game company "owed" you a bunch of free support.

If the money is that tight, perhaps RPG's shouldn't be their sole business. But, I do appreciate the work they do (for the most part) and don't mind paying the exorbitant prices books get nowadays (again, for the most part).

What I meant was, I expect support for a product, and I have a specific idea of what that support should/would/could be. COmpanies in response tell me they'd go bankrupt for supporting their products in such a manner. "We're too busy making new books to update <blah class> to 3.5", is not the answer I want to hear, and will affect my purchase of future products.

And the comment about going and finding a "pirated" copy? I am not gonna comment on that simply because every time I tried, I ended up lashing out in a manner that would likely get me banned, it got me riled up that much.Any way you look at it, it was not a very nice thing to say.

As I mentioned above, I'm not saying I'll use a pirate copy, I'm saying that they're already out there, so decrying "giving it away for free" doesn't work for me, given someone has already provided a complete copy.

 

[Reynard]

What I meant was, I expect support for a product

Why? If you buy a novel, you don't get any support. If you buy a CRPG, you might get a patch (and most RPGs will give you erratta -- same thing). If you go to a movie, you don't get a free video tape of the movie on the way out. What makes you think/feel that an RPG publisher owes you anything beyond the book you just paid for? Web enhancements, free adventures, erratta - -these are all bennies for which to be appreciative, not birthrights. If you don't think the product is worth the price you paid for it without any 'support' (and more than likely, you'd be wrong from a purely economical standpoint), don't purchase further products from the company. Don't demand that they essentially give you their next product for free.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Why? If you buy a novel, you don't get any support. If you buy a CRPG, you might get a patch (and most RPGs will give you erratta -- same thing). If you go to a movie, you don't get a free video tape of the movie on the way out. What makes you think/feel that an RPG publisher owes you anything beyond the book you just paid for? Web enhancements, free adventures, erratta - -these are all bennies for which to be appreciative, not birthrights. If you don't think the product is worth the price you paid for it without any 'support' (and more than likely, you'd be wrong from a purely economical standpoint), don't purchase further products from the company. Don't demand that they essentially give you their next product for free.

We obviously have different views of the RPG industry, and what a continueing gameline is. I'm not buying a single product for the most part, I'm buying something more. And, I think my point was pretty clear that the lack of support will affect my buying decisions. I don't think adventures should be free, but making a product that supports your line, but doesn't make as much money as something else (say, a sourcebook unrelated) is sometimes better overall.

I never demanded anything, this is a discussion on a discussion forum. I'm not screaming that the publishers are evil capitalists for not giving me free stuff they never promised me. I'm saying the lack of an SRD for some of the Alternate Core Systems is a factor in my buying decision. Continueing support is also a factor in my purchasing decisions.

To forestall the next step in most of these discussions, telling me that the publishers don't want me as a customer isn't the best answer for a consumer market. I'm not the only person citing a lack of support for purchasing decisions.

 

[Banshee16]

Nope, no legal reasons preventing it, but as others have stated, a whole lot of other reasons are preventing it.


<insert annoying buzzer sound> Wrong Answer!
To put it simply, the publishers support the SRD by using it, not by adding to it, or creating their own versions of it. The OGL does not allow them to add to it. As mentioned, they can create their own SRDs, just not update the current one.


That is because the SRD is their property. Nobody CAN update the SRD except WotC. Now, others can create their own SRD's based off the one WotC maintains, but they cannot update it.

In the end you would basically end up with what you currently have (M&M, True20, Arcana Evolved, Iron Hereos, etc..).

If that's the case, then WotC can't complain about the fact that other D20 companies are producing alternate systems, and the game isn't "evolving". If WotC won't take the suggestions of these companies, and make them available in the SRD, then of course it won't grow.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

All of Sovereign Press' hardcover sourcebooks for Dragonlance have been full-color. I think that's pretty rare outside of WOTC. I do think the product line is less spoken of around here because of the license, but those of us who're writing for the books make sure to add in a lot of lootable content.

Of course, it's not OGL lootable content. But still...

Cheers,
Cam

You know, after I wrote that, the little voice in my head said "don't forget Sovereign Press", but it was getting late, and I didn't feel like editing it at that point, but you're right. I'm a DL fan, so I have a few of the books. I didn't like the 5th Age sourcebook as much, but the Bestiary and Towers of High Sorcery were really cool.

Doesn't seem like DL gets a lot of love among the EN World crowd, though.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I was very pleased to see that. We're all playing in their sandbox and it goes to show that not only we can make some money off their OGC, they can make some money off of ours.

I wish WotC would look into doing a compilation of d20 material released by 3rd parties and turn it into another Unearted Arcana type book. That kind of recipriocity would be a win-win for everyone involved.

joe b.

Malhavoc did something similar with the Year's Best D20 book....but it would be neat to see WotC use more of that content as well.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

The period you mentioned (shortly after the release of Blue Rose) was when we parted ways with the company that used to do our sales and fulfilment. We like to actually get the money for the books we sell; guess we're funny that way. Anyway, after that we made some new deals and started handling sales ourselves but there was a transition period in getting that all worked out. We do currently sell to four Canadian distributors: Lion Rampant, Universal, New Century, and Dynamic. If your local store is still having issues, tell them to drop us a line at our custserv address {custserv [at] greenronin.com}.

Will do, I'll let them know. I think they were using Canadian Distributors. Not sure if they use any others. The other I've heard of is Diamond. Overall, Green Ronin is one company that seems to be hard to find around here. Sword & Sorcery, AEG, and Sovereign Press seem to all get coverage, but Green Ronin...I can only find your product in one store in Ottawa.

Banshee

 

[Hussar]

Well, I actually wasn't thinking of current releases either. WOTC certainly doesn't place newly released books into the srd, so I don't see why other companies should. But, take an example that's near to my gaming experiences. I recently ran a naval campaign. At the time, there were at least five separate d20 rule books for running naval combat. There are more now. Think about that for a second.

Five naval combat rulebooks for DnD. What other gaming system would see five different rule books covering EXACTLY the same subject? Wasn't the point of the OGL so that companies didn't do this? And it's not like naval campaigns are mainstream gaming. This is a pretty small niche.

In addition, as I write this, I know that at least three of those rules books are out of print. Essentially, the companies that wrote those rules will never make a dime out of those books again (in almost all likelyhood). How could it hurt for one of them, say, Mongoose, to put out a Naval Revised SRD which included the SRD plus Seas of Blood?

Or, better yet, contact someone like Sovelier Sage or the guys at the Hypertext SRD and hand them the rtf files. Ask them to add a section onto their website for a Mongoose Naval SRD Supplement. I'm pretty sure they'd jump at it.

I could see this having three effects:

a) Other companies could then start producing books based on the Supplemented SRD's without having to reprint the entire material from whatever book they drew it from. As it stands now, if I want to make a book with a PrC from Scarred Lands (for example) I either have to use up a page or two reprinting the PrC or I have to make my buyers angry for not including the material.

b) Increased lifespan for 3.5. By greatly beefing up the SRD, you increase the number of people who will use it, thus meaning that more people will stick with 3.5 when 4e eventually comes out. This is definitely a win for the d20 crowd who lose out the hardest when a new edition is released.

c) Provide a great deal of advertising. By having a ((Company Name)) Supplemented SRD, you reach out to many more potential buyers that might otherwise completely ignore your books since they don't know you exist.

d) Greatly increase the chance that 4e will be OGL. As it stands, WOTC has no real incentive to make 4e OGL since they're the only ones making the rules available to users. Sure, OGC is useable by other publishers, but, then again, it isn't other publishers who buy your books.

Then again, what do I know?

 

[Vigilance]

In addition, as I write this, I know that at least three of those rules books are out of print. Essentially, the companies that wrote those rules will never make a dime out of those books again (in almost all likelyhood). How could it hurt for one of them, say, Mongoose, to put out a Naval Revised SRD which included the SRD plus Seas of Blood?

One effect it would have would be preventing the company from releasing the book in PDF form, which is a nice way for a company to make some extra cash in the long term from an out of print book.

Its a simple fact of economics- d20 companies are tightly budgeted operations that are usually struggling to stay out of the red. Most are beginning to release out of print books in PDF so they can continue to see a return on them.

Asking them not to do that- or even worse asking them to pay someone to make a "SRD" so the material would be free, is an expense the vast majority of RPG companies simply cant afford.

Chuck