Charles Ryan on Adventures

[philreed]

So, to reiterate:
I myself find it a detractor when an alternate Core system (i.e. True20, Grim Tales) is published, and months or years later, the material is still not available for players in a usable SRD.

Did you play RPGs in the 80s and 90s?

 

[Vocenoctum]

So everything in that PDF (except the art and layout) is free online.

As far as I know it is the only commercial version of that SRD that wasn't produced by GOO.

I bought their Stingy Gamer Edition, which is also a neat idea.
How did your SRD sell, in general terms?

Also, I've been gaming since the 80's, yeah. Earliest product I bought new was Dragon #90, which drew me in. The internet has changed the industry a lot though.

 

[Vigilance]

I'm saying that the amount of money, while present, might be better put into drawing more customers to the material and the later material that builds on it, rather than taking the money now and losing in the end.

Losing in the end? Because they wont give away something they can still sell?

How do you balance your check book?

Give away the 50 dollar core rule book so you can sell the 20 dollar supplement? Under what business model does that make sense?

Also, it is a bit irksome to see Publishers repeatedly act like other publishers are the only beneficiary of the OGL.

No publishers are in the same boat as consumers. If I want to mine a competitors' book for OGC they aren't going to give it to me free anymore than I'd give it to you so you can pass it out to your gaming group.

I think the problem is that companies would rather sit back and blame others for the failing market. (i.e. 3.5 napalmed their fields) rather than admit that the slump is because of the vast amount of tripe that was out. Everyone wants to point to WotC business model as an exception when it suits their needs, but maybe they're just doing some things BETTER than other companies?

WOTC can just do things the rest of us cant.

That's not a cop out, its really not.

Look at it this way: other companies might use more of WOTC's tactics and strategies if they could sell 100,000 (or even 10,000) of a core rule book instead of the 1,000-3,000 most RPG books sell these days.

A simple calculator will tell you that if WOTC loses a sale due to a SRD being present that its way less a percentage of the print run than if RPGObjects loses that same one sale.

Chuck

 

[Mark CMG]

Did you play RPGs in the 80s and 90s?

Yup. 70s, too. If it gets any hotter we go swimming or stay home in the A/C.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Losing in the end? Because they wont give away something they can still sell?

How do you balance your check book?

Give away the 50 dollar core rule book so you can sell the 20 dollar supplement? Under what business model does that make sense?

Lets say the core book has dwindled to selling 100 a month. Releasing the SRD cuts that to 50 a month. But, the product you release next sells 4,000 copies instead of 3,000.

No, the numbers aren't exact, since no one will give numbers, because if people used real numbers, Voodoo would kill them, or something.

So, let me repeat. Releasing an SRD say, 4 months after the Core Rules have been released, would contribute to future sales. It would also help people like me with a player base that's scattered over the USA.

No publishers are in the same boat as consumers. If I want to mine a competitors' book for OGC they aren't going to give it to me free anymore than I'd give it to you so you can pass it out to your gaming group.

Not to speak in Absolutes, but that's simply wrong. A publisher can reprint whatever they want to from OGL material, the publisher's opinion doesn't matter.

If I wanted to, I could type up an SRD, or Scan/OCR one, and it'd be perfectly legal so long as I followed the requirements. The arguement against such is that future products would not be as much OGC, but who cares if you can't use the OGC anyway?

WOTC can just do things the rest of us cant.

That's not a cop out, its really not.

Look at it this way: other companies might use more of WOTC's tactics and strategies if they could sell 100,000 (or even 10,000) of a core rule book instead of the 1,000-3,000 most RPG books sell these days.

A simple calculator will tell you that if WOTC loses a sale due to a SRD being present that its way less a percentage of the print run than if RPGObjects loses that same one sale.

Chuck

True, but the idea is that WotC isn't going to do something that loses them sales over all. They're a profitable corporate subsidiary of another corporation that demands performance from them. To believe that WotC loses money just because they can afford it is a bit silly. I do understand that it might not be possible for some of the really small guys, and like I mentioned elsewhere, a PDF product will be affected differently.

It just seems the idea is discarded too quickly among publishers afraid that it's customers are trying to get something for nothing. If you look at even a portion of the replies I've gotten, the idea is repeatedly put forth that I'm trying to do something underhanded.

 

[rounser]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but I think that this discussion is missing a massive piece of the puzzle...that designers are simply not very interested in making a "tower of orcs" (as a WotC designer reportedly contemptuously called adventure-writing), when there's a much bigger glory factor in making a setting, or a sourcebook.

Making new rules or a broad campaign setting is like talking the talk...making promises that the DM is supposed to deliver on....whereas writing an adventure causes the possibilities to collapse into a singularity, it's walking the walk, and far too much like hard work when compared to the alternatives (stuffing around with maps, the history of the elves, and your cool new ranger class). Writing about kingdoms that never were or new rules is significantly more fun than drafting out an adventure, in the same way that most DMs love to draw maps and make campaign settings and house rules more than actual adventure notes.

Perversely, DMs don't seem to realise that they're buying the fun creation stuff (thinking more campaign setting than rules here) and leaving the hard work for themselves. I think this is because they don't like to think about the possibilities collapsing either, and would rather lose themselves in a daydream of kingdoms and classes than worry about the nitty gritty, which is plot hooks and encounters. No wonder D&D publishing is in such a weird fix.

 

[pogre]

Perversely, DMs don't seem to realise that they're buying the fun creation stuff (thinking more campaign setting than rules here) and leaving the hard work for themselves. I think this is because they don't like to think about the possibilities collapsing either, and would rather lose themselves in a daydream of kingdoms and classes than worry about the nitty gritty, which is plot hooks and encounters.

I totally agree with you here. I own very few supplements and no world books. I love to buy adventures if for no other reason that to steal stat blocks.

 

[Vigilance]

It just seems the idea is discarded too quickly among publishers afraid that it's customers are trying to get something for nothing. If you look at even a portion of the replies I've gotten, the idea is repeatedly put forth that I'm trying to do something underhanded.

You know, while we're "discarding things too quickly", has it ever occured to you that we know the RPG business better than you? Maybe a little?

This must be how Joe Montana feels when people on the street comment on his throwing mechanics (ok... Im not Joe Montana- that would be Chris Pramas- so maybe I should have said this is how Kelly Holcomb feels ).

Chuck

 

[Vocenoctum]

You know, while we're "discarding things too quickly", has it ever occured to you that we know the RPG business better than you? Maybe a little?

It's all theory though, unless someone (aside from GoO) does it, isn't it? Ars Magica was a grand experiment, but just like the example of WotC doesn't "work" because they're too big, Ars Magica doesn't work because it's a niche product among niche products. You may have more experience, but that doesn't automatically mean much in the long run. Maybe you took all your levels in Warrior instead of Expert for all I know?

The fact that game companies are almost always on the edge of bankruptcy doesn't exactly engender confidence in their knowledge of the market though.

ETA: It seems to me that folks think WotC is successful in spite of themselves, rather than because of their business acumen. They're a huge company now for many reasons, but they don't pour money away for the thrill of it.

 

[Reynard]

I don't care if D20 Mecha is the new industry standard, I only care that it's accessible to me. I'm not asking for an SRD to make publishers lives easier. I realize their business needs to be profitable, but they should likewise remember who they're selling to.

Let's not mince words. You are asking for something for free, that the company that produces it would rather you pay for. You have all the right in the world to not run out and buy Arcana Evolved (just as an example), and are equally free to therefore not buy supplements that follow it. But Malhavoc should be under no pressure to give you all the "good parts" for free, so you can decide wether you'd deign to drop a few bucks on a smaller supplement with a very likley much smaller profit margin. That's just asinine. If you want to save yourself some money, try looking at previews on the web and in magazines, or go buy an inexpensive supplement *first*, and if you like what you see, go back and buy the core product. Or don't. But don't just stand there with your hand out feeling entitled.

On topic: I understand where CR is coming from, and I think i understand why he is coming from there -- as successful as D&D is in relation to other RPG publisher, they are likely suffering from the slow-down too, and the best way to combat that is to get more people playing the game and buying books. So, if companies that produce good work -- like Green Ronin and Mongoose and Malhavoc -- would put their effort into supporting D&D, like they were 'supposed to', then D&D would be better off. I get that, and it makes sense from WotC's perspective. I just don't see how it substantially helps tose 3rd parties, UNLESS WotC makes some concessions, the biggest of which would be the ability to actually slap the D&D logo on their product and sell it through the same channels as WotC sells D&D books.

Instead, it seems possible that WotC is abandoning the d20 market (not pulling the license or anything, but also not doing anything to help it out) and letting those other companies fend for themselves. They believe they make a superior product (as well they should, regardless of whether it is always true) and so they are going to do it themselves. And do you know what that means, them 'doing it themselves"? it means hiring the same freelancers that produce the quality work from all the 3rd parties everyone is so rabid over. because they can. because they have the resources to do so. So, when WotC decides to seriously support their game themselves -- rather than letting another company do it -- they are not only going to be pulling money out of those companies' pockets (there is only so much pie to go around, and despite what many people here at EN World seem to think, that D&D logo is an extremely powerful tool), they are very likely going to be stealing their talent as well.

this is of course my opnion, based on no facts at all, and probably wrong. But I don't think it is implausible, and I don't think a 'Powered By D&D' license would hurt anyone.