Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Michael Tree]

Lets say the core book has dwindled to selling 100 a month. Releasing the SRD cuts that to 50 a month. But, the product you release next sells 4,000 copies instead of 3,000.

Those are very impressive numbers that you just magically pulled out of your *** to prove your point.

For an equally valid* counter-example, lets say the core book has dwindled to selling 100 a month. Releasing the SRD cuts that to 10 a month. But, the product you release next sells 3,050 copies instead of 3,000 copies. You lose an fortune and have books taking up space in the warehouse that you can't sell.

*Actually, this counter-example is even more valid, because it's based on a real example, not on arbitrarily invented numbers and wishful thinking. You seem determined to ignore the Ars Magica example, but it's the only real data we have. It's also a decent seller, and no more a niche game than any other d20 rpg warranting its own core rulebook.

So, let me repeat. Releasing an SRD say, 4 months after the Core Rules have been released, would contribute to future sales. It would also help people like me with a player base that's scattered over the USA.

So it's all about getting a player base of people who don't spend a dime on books. Got it.

 

[TwistedBishop]

And I doubt that releasing it as a pdf of the "full version" of the game would be significantly difference from releasing a SRD with the full game without the pretty layout.

I'm not sure where you'd get this idea. There's a reason we all own the WotC cores even though there's a nice SRD available for free.

 

[Banshee16]

Holy Orders of the Stars is out now, and if you liked Towers, you should ilke this one. It's not era-specific, so it's just as useful for a War of the Lance or pre-Cataclysm game.



Not really, no. It's a 21 year old setting and it has kender in it and the original modules are now considered by many to be an exercise in railroading, which turns many people off. It's a shame, because we do put a heck of a lot of work into the books. That's true of anybody, though, I think - in fact, one of the major issues I feel plagues the d20 market comes when the products are attached to a license or specific setting. There could be all kinds of good stuff in the book, but if you have no interest in the property to begin with, you won't bother taking a look.

Cheers,
Cam

It was my first setting, and though I left it in frustration years ago when TSR refused to do anything beyond rehashing the War of the Lance over and over, among other things, I have seen SP doing a really nice job with the license. And I'll admit that you guys seem to be getting better at it with every release.

I've now picked up Holy Order of the Stars, and will definitely check it out.

Now, if only you guys would do something for Taladas, I'd be happy Time of the Dragon's one of the only 2nd Ed. supplements I keep out with my 3E stuff, because it was so cool.

Banshee

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

For example, I like the flavor of some of the Swashbuckling Adventures supplements, and have bought them. I lack the basic rules from their D20 Core book, but since I'm not going to use the setting, it's a waste of money for me to buy that core book. An SRD would greatly increase the usability of the supplements I do buy, and I'd probably buy more. Eventually I'd probably buy the Core just because.

The Swashbuckling Adventures hardcover is useful all around. I bought it when it first came out, and have got a fair amount of use out of it. Some of the feats need to be watched if you want to use them in a regular D&D campaign, because they're written assuming a lack of magic etc. But the book has a lot of good stuff in it. Some interesting firearms rules, all the different schools of fencing, the various fencing feats, some of the classes like swashbuckler, courtier, and noble, among others. You don't need to use Theah to use that book..

Banshee

 

[Cam Banks]

Now, if only you guys would do something for Taladas, I'd be happy Time of the Dragon's one of the only 2nd Ed. supplements I keep out with my 3E stuff, because it was so cool.

We'll have to wait until Chris Pierson has finished writing his Taladas trilogy before we put out any sourcebook on that popular fan-favorite setting.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Banshee16]

And this is because of the SRD, or because of exchange rates and such? I think GoO would have information on how the SRD affected sales of their products. For myself it contributed to purchasing Centauri Knights, the Stingy Anime Edition, Mecha and a few other books.

The difference with the Ars Magica release were a few, such as a new edition already announced, the release of a PDF with the full version of the game, and the general "niche" of Ars Magica. I'm not sure how any of this affected everything overall, but they aren't factors to ignore.

I doubt it would be exchange rates....otherwise that would mean all these other Canadian companies would be going out of business too because of exchange rates, and that's not happening.

I don't think that making their anime SRD would sink the company....but it might sink sales of BESM D20....and if they released SRDs for their other products, well, that would sink profits in all those lines as well.

It really angers me sometimes how shortsighted customers can be. These guys aren't driving around in Ferraris. They're not making tonnes of money in this industry, and people still want to get things for free.

I did see one promising thing idea....RPG Objects seems to offer a PDF copy of their products for free if you purchase the print version. That's kind of a cool idea. That way you don't have to carry the whole book with you if you have a laptop, or can easily print out character sheets etc. To me, that's fair, if I've paid for the book already. Too bad I learned about that *after* I threw out my receipt for Legends of Excalibur..

Hopefully GOO can turn things around. I'm hearing really good things about the Game of Thrones RPG. This may finally be the version of the rules that fixes most of the problems I have with pure D&D. But now I've heard the book is delayed until November at least. If they're coming up with innovative products like that, I'd hate to see them go under.

Banshee

 

[Hussar]

Whoo, looks like I opened a fair can o' worms here.

Actually, as I said a while ago, I never expect anyone to give away an entire book for free. As has been said, it's stupid for a small company (or large one) to do that. I can agree with that entirely. But, that's not the only option here.

Here's an idea.

Take five or ten d20 publishers - doesn't matter which ones. Each of them types up a five page .rtf document full of rules that they can live with becoming part of the SRD. Doesn't matter from which supplements, so long as it's OGC kosher. Every six months, or a year, they email that .rtf file to Sovelier Sage or the Hypertext SRD and ask those guys to make an addendum to their site. Call it the ((Company Name)) Appendix.

A five page writeup is an evening's work, so it's not like its too onerous. It makes all sorts of people happy, including other publishers who can now use some of those rules in thier own books without reinventing the wheel. Now I can make a D20 Sailing Ships supplement with 25 different ships using the Broadsides!! combat rules easily. Free advertising for Living Imagination (not that they would care too much anymore) and better product for me. And, as an added bonus, I don't have to come up with yet another ship to ship combat ruleset to add to the pile that already exists.

I can appreciate that adding an entire book to the SRD would be a very difficult and time consuming task. I don't think anyone actually wants that though. There's nothing stopping an incremental addition to the SRD that can be done fairly easily. Saying that it can't be done because its too difficult is ignoring that it can be done, but, not everything can be done. I don't think there is a need for everything. Just a showcase of whatever you think is groovy enough to become a game standard.

 

[Banshee16]

I bought their Stingy Gamer Edition, which is also a neat idea.
How did your SRD sell, in general terms?

Also, I've been gaming since the 80's, yeah. Earliest product I bought new was Dragon #90, which drew me in. The internet has changed the industry a lot though.

Why should that material be available for free though? I don't get it. They did the work. You want to enjoy the product. Why wouldn't you pay for it?

Now.....I do think it makes sense that the companies should have some form of network or whatever, where they can go to each other for easy to reach SRD data for products they've produced....so that they can work together...ie. if one company wants to create modules for a setting another company created. That, to me, would make sense. But not just providing all that material for free to the public.

Your statement about the fact that WotC doesn't take into account that WotC is a *much* larger company than most D20 publishers, with far higher budgets, larger staff, and a certain amount of history and power as the owners of the D&D brand, and the most well established companies producing products for that brand. The D20 publishers are like fleas in comparison. To expect them to give the same level of support is a little unrealistic, I think. Most of the companies I've seen and buy products from do support what they write though. My only wish is that there would be more modules. Heck, even if modules were written just as PDFs, I'd still find them useful..

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

On topic: I understand where CR is coming from, and I think i understand why he is coming from there -- as successful as D&D is in relation to other RPG publisher, they are likely suffering from the slow-down too, and the best way to combat that is to get more people playing the game and buying books. So, if companies that produce good work -- like Green Ronin and Mongoose and Malhavoc -- would put their effort into supporting D&D, like they were 'supposed to', then D&D would be better off. I get that, and it makes sense from WotC's perspective. I just don't see how it substantially helps tose 3rd parties, UNLESS WotC makes some concessions, the biggest of which would be the ability to actually slap the D&D logo on their product and sell it through the same channels as WotC sells D&D books.

Problem is, that in the absence of these 3rd party companies displaying actual ingenuity, we wouldn't have Midnight or Oathbound, or Hamunaptra, or Black Company, or Iron Kingdoms, or tonnes of other really cool settings or products. WotC has already said they don't want to create settings anymore, because it splits the fan base. And I (and many other players or DMs) don't find the settings they are currently publishing innovative/interesting enough.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. The WotC of 2005 is not the TSR of 1997. There are good sides and bad sides to that. One of the bad sides is that they're less willing to take chances, and do something really different.

I don't know about you, but I *want* to see this innovation coming from the 3rd party companies, because I've come to realize over the last few years that I can no longer expect it from WotC.

And at the end of the day, I have a full-time job, a dog, a fiance, and a shortage of time to come up with much of that cool stuff myself, so I depend on published products in order to keep running my game.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

We'll have to wait until Chris Pierson has finished writing his Taladas trilogy before we put out any sourcebook on that popular fan-favorite setting.

Cheers,
Cam

You know....I really disliked many of the more recent DL novels. But I have to say, Blades of the Tiger was one of the *best* DL books I've read in a long, long time. Hopefully the next book will come soon. I haven't seen any data on a name, when to expect it, etc.

Banshee