D&D 5E Charm Person ends if caster does something harmful to target. Is hurting the target's ally harmful?

[RangerWickett]

What would be your take here? Two baddies - caster and warrior - come across two PCs - another caster and warrior. The baddie caster goes first and charms the PC caster. Unable to attack the baddie caster, the PC caster flings a fire bolt at the baddie warrior. The two warriors duke it out.

Then the next turn, the baddie caster follows up by casting suggestion on the PC warrior to get him to flee the battle. The PC warrior fails, and runs away, leaving the PC caster at the mercy of the baddie warrior. Does the charm end, if you're GM?

 

[payn]

If I have this correctly, the mage casts suggestion on an ally of the charmed to flee?

One interpretation is that's not particularly harmful (despite being a mind attack), nor targeting the charmed person, so the charm stays.

 

[John R Davis]

Charm stays.

 

[Morrus]

I think it's clear that it means direct physical harm to the target directly inflicted by the caster.

 

[Deset Gled]

"You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. "

Casting spells at or hurting the ally is not directly harmful to the target. Charm stays.

 

[jgsugden]

As always, ask your DM because they are the final say.

My definition of harm may be broader than others. They could have used the word damage - but selected a different word. To me, harm is different than damage, and damage is not a pure subset of harm.

For example, if you charm a parent and then murder their child in front of them, that is harmful to the parent. They would never recover from the trauma of watching their child murdered right in front of them. That, in my book, would certainly be something harmful to that parent. To that end, I put an evaluation on each event and ask whether the target would suffer harm - physical or emotional - from the situation.

On the flip side, I would not necessariy give someone a save in the caster or their ally damaged the target if the target isn't particularly concerned with a little damage. To me, there has to be a significant disontinuity between the actions of the caster (or their allies) and the notion that they are friendly with the target. As an example from Critical Role, there have been plenty of times that Grog asked his allies to go ahead and hurt him to amuse himself or to test things out. If the target had a clear belief that the situation was all in fun, even if it dealt real damage, I would give no save because to me, that damage is not considered harm by the target.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

It's up to the DM how this plays out, but it's worth noting that the charmed condition doesn't necessarily make one friendly to the charmer, at least not in 5e, and being unable to attack or target the charmer doesn't prevent one from attacking the environment or objects near them.

DM: "You feel compelled to keep your hand from pointing towards the mindflayer."

PLAYER: "I pull it upwards to blast the ceiling above them."

DM: "Dayum. Now I've got to crack open chapter 8 of the DMG for Improvised Damage."

 

[J.Quondam]

It's up to the DM how this plays out, but it's worth noting that the charmed condition doesn't necessarily make one friendly to the charmer, at least not in 5e, and being unable to attack or target the charmer doesn't prevent one from attacking the environment or objects near them.

DM: "You feel compelled to keep your hand from pointing towards the mindflayer."

PLAYER: "I pull it upwards to blast the ceiling above them."

DM: "Dayum. Now I've got to crack open chapter 8 of the DMG for Improvised Damage."

The text of the spell notes that "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance." I don't really read that as enabling a charmed creature to intentionally inflict damage upon the charmer at all, even indirectly. Ymmv.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

The text of the spell notes that "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance." I don't really read that as enabling a charmed creature to intentionally inflict damage upon the charmer at all, even indirectly. Ymmv.

You might start seeing the caster as a friendly acquaintance, but once they start attacking your allies no matter how much you protest, your own feelings become suspicious and that would arguably become an Insight check (with a reasonable DC) to realize you've been affected by something strange, especially when you can't remember how you ever became acquaintances.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Charm Person makes you regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance, but the rest of the party that you have adventured with probably have much stronger bonds.
If the two are fighting, it is quite legitimate to do anything in your power, including grapple checks and non-lethal spells to separate or prevent your friends from killing each other. The Charm condition would prevent you from grappling the caster of the charm, or probably using a sleep spell on them. However putting a wall between them or other method of splitting them up or stopping the fight would be fine.