Charming: Do they remember?

[Ketjak]

Trolls...

Hi folks! This is a little to the side of the guard vs. charm person issue, my apologies!

A SOR 8 character wants an all-singing, all-dancing combat machine buddy. A troll wanders by. Poof. (Will DC 19 vs. troll's +3, troll fails 75% of the time, damn that Iron Will.)

To get him to be an attack dog on a short leash, does that character need to modify his attitude one step more or use the mechanic presented in charm person?

Friendly (means) Wishes you well (possible actions) Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful (means) Will take risks to help you (possible actions) Protect, back up, heal, aid

If it requires a modification of the troll's attitude to helpful, how does one do that to a CE troll? Diplomacy and meaty cupcakes? Intimidate? For that matter, does Intimidate skill contradict the eight day duration of charm monster?

Charm Person
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

Hmm, the SOR will match Charisma checks with a troll (+6 difference in the SOR's favor)... What does "good at pantomiming" mean in these post-Innuendo skill days?

Charm Monster
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Target: One living creature
Duration: One day/level
This spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size.

Perhaps coupled with hypnotism? (Will DC 15 vs troll's +3, troll fails 55% of the time.)

While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.

It's overkill, but it would bring the target to Helpful. "You should attack my enemies" is probably pretty reasonable:

Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”
A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hottempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.
Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.

Opinions?

 

[diaglo]

Opinions?

so the sorc convinces the troll by pantomime what things would be the most fun destroying. and stands well clear of the menacing troll.

 

[DonTadow]

so the sorc convinces the troll by pantomime what things would be the most fun destroying. and stands well clear of the menacing troll.

Are you asking which is more efficient? I'd go with the spell. With the troll being chaotic evil he may not be too kind to listening to you lecture for any amount of time, nor may not stand there long enough for you to cast the spell. Plus even with the friendly thing he's choatic, and evil

 

[diaglo]

Are you asking which is more efficient? I'd go with the spell. With the troll being chaotic evil he may not be too kind to listening to you lecture for any amount of time, nor may not stand there long enough for you to cast the spell. Plus even with the friendly thing he's choatic, and evil

no, i meant after you charmed him.

 

[Sejs]

Are you asking which is more efficient? I'd go with the spell. With the troll being chaotic evil he may not be too kind to listening to you lecture for any amount of time, nor may not stand there long enough for you to cast the spell. Plus even with the friendly thing he's choatic, and evil

...and doesn't speak Common.

 

[vsper]

Charming

I also think this depends on the situation. If it is a small town and johnny the extremely ugly town mage seems to have his way with all the girls in town for a couple of days each,then they find him disqusting, people are going to catch on. Actually I think anytime people start acting weird they will blame him, even if he has done nothing. If someone has been charmed before they will be more likely to figure it out.

Vsper

 

[Storyteller01]

I use intellligence checks in my games to figure out if you were under a spell or not. It makes a bit more sense to me. I don't really need to know magic to know that if i did something unlike me and I live in a magical world with easy charm spells that i must have been under some type of spell. I'd ask a spellcheck if he wants to identify the spell but a basic intelligence check with the dc configured to how out of the ordinary the action was.

Woldn't this start something close to the Salem Trials?

(On a failed [something] check): I would never have done that on my own! It must have been magic! WITCH!

Might make for a nice 'cause your PC spellcaster problems' adventure.


And let's not forget those story based BBEG's who have forces others to doubt themselves/do what they wouldn't do without magic for YEARS.

Should we invent a 'Knowledge (psychology)' skill?

 

[Storyteller01]

Heh, if I were that same captain of the guard I think my training would include that if you see someone suspicious staring at you and casting a spell (waving his arms about, mumbling in arcane languages, and making crazy shadow puppets in your general direction) you take that free action to speak and tell your fellow guards "Hey, Spellcaster at 12 o clock." and from there you automatically assume that whatever he's doing is hostile. You or one of your guard buddies takes up position next to the alarm gong and gets ready to bang out the code for Your Position (East Gate, say): Magical Threat if anything even vaguely untoward happens.


Friendly people don't just randomly saunter up to guards on duty and start casting spells without first explaining themselves, and thus it's the safer bet to assume anything magical done toward you out of the blue is bad witha capital B.

Would depend on your camapign world. In FR, heck yes (thet probably have magic items to detect such things)! In a low magic camapign (can't think of a title right now)...

 

[DonTadow]

Woldn't this start something close to the Salem Trials?

(On a failed [something] check): I would never have done that on my own! It must have been magic! WITCH!

Might make for a nice 'cause your PC spellcaster problems' adventure.


And let's not forget those story based BBEG's who have forces others to doubt themselves/do what they wouldn't do without magic for YEARS.

Should we invent a 'Knowledge (psychology)' skill?

I'd never thought of a salem witch trials adventure but I'm sure my players will thank you for the idea when their hanging, crushed or burned ...

 

[hazmat]

The skills Knowledge(arcana), Profession(guard) seem to fit here.

If magic is prevalent the DC for knowing about spellcasting would probably be under 10. This means that an untrained knowledge(arcana) check would work.

If being a guard is this NPCs "profession" then it'd probably be easier to DC. I'd give the NPC a bonus to the profession check equal to the number of levels the NPC has been a guard.