Charming: Do they remember?

[DonTadow]

i think it relies on attitude.

charmed = friendly

but if the guard suspects you are threatening... he gains +5 to save vs. charm when cast.

also look at fascinate and suggestion.. things that work on a similar mechanic.

I also think you have to really analyze the spell. At one hour per caster level it's intent is to be one of those long term effects and the effects end at the end of the spell. At third level you have a friend for 3 hours, but theres agood chance he's going to be peeved when this is over with as his real feeligns and memories collide. This gives pcs a few hours to do wht they need to do.

 

[kjenks]

the Dc isbased on the situation. It's always 10 plus modifiers. I keep modifiers in range of 2. -2 if the person is pretty familiar with tactics. +2 if the person is not as familiar. The dc's may be lower or higher depending on other factors such as if the pcs get caught by other guards, if the pcs are already in a hostile enviroment and the enemy knows of there existenet, if the pcs are in a friendly place, if the pc's is family with the charmee ect.

That Intelligence check is a good idea, but the DC seems a little too easy to me. I think the DC should be a bit higher, like DC 15 to recognize a spell that's being cast. And it should be a little harder for higher level spells, so let's add +1 per spell level.

It should be a little harder to identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. Maybe we can make it so you must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. Add 5 to the DC, so that would be something like DC 20 + spell level.

And it would take at least a little training -- say one rank in an appropriate skill -- to recognize a spell from someone sneezing. So let's make it "Trained Only."

Now, let's think, what should we call that skill?

How about Spellcraft? Yeah, that's the ticket!

What? There's already a skill exactly like that? Oh, well. Let's just use those rules instead of making up our own.

-- Ken Jenks

 

[kjenks]

IMC, if you can see or hear someone casting a spell, and you've ever encountered/heard of spellcasting, chances are real good you recognize what they're doing. No spellcraft check necessary to notice someone saying strange phrases and waving their hands in the air.

Complete Adventurer suggests using Slight of Hand opposed by Spot to cast a spell so that others won't recognize it. Slight of Hand is "Trained Only" and it's a cross-class skill for most spellcasters.

So, if I can see and hear you cast Charm Person on me, I know you're casting a spell. But it doesn't matter, because you're my friend! But once it's worn off, I remember everything that happened (including you casting a spell, and me suddenly acting strangely.) I probably don't know it's Charm Person, per se. But if I've ever heard of mind-control magic, I'm going to be somewhere between suspicious and furious.

Spider

If you've spent a little time studying mind-control magic (say, getting one rank in Spellcraft), you might even recognize the spell that's being cast (DC 15+spell level) or its effects (DC 20+spell level). Spellcraft is also "Trained Only" and it's a class skill for most spellcasters, a cross-class skill for most non-spellcasters.

-- Ken Jenks

 

[DonTadow]

That Intelligence check is a good idea, but the DC seems a little too easy to me. I think the DC should be a bit higher, like DC 15 to recognize a spell that's being cast. And it should be a little harder for higher level spells, so let's add +1 per spell level.

It should be a little harder to identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. Maybe we can make it so you must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. Add 5 to the DC, so that would be something like DC 20 + spell level.

And it would take at least a little training -- say one rank in an appropriate skill -- to recognize a spell from someone sneezing. So let's make it "Trained Only."

Now, let's think, what should we call that skill?

How about Spellcraft? Yeah, that's the ticket!

What? There's already a skill exactly like that? Oh, well. Let's just use those rules instead of making up our own.

-- Ken Jenks

I see where you're going, but I want to get away from trying to identify the spell and know its a spell and understand the spell. This is about beings living in a magical world and knowing that the thoughts they remember are not their own. If I start using it based on the magic points put into it (I use the elements of magic system), then I skewer away from that and make it more of a magical investigation. He doesnt want to know the spell level, the magic in the area, what school the spell came from, who the spellcaster was, whom the spellcaster's first grade teacher is ect.; He wants to know what happened. He is trynig to figure out if something awry or is it just his paranoia.

This is a plain investigation. This guy is deducing what happened. Even when he finishes concluding he doesnt have to believe that something magical happened, but he does know that the actions he took were unlike him and he needs to correct it. Again, Charm is not a permanenet mind altering spell. Charm happens for a few hours and it goes away, completel... no residual back spell effects.

What I"m understanding from your arguement, is that a guard, no matter how good he is or smart he is, is too stupid to realize that he didn't know those people he let in an hour ago and that he doesn't normally act like that. If that is the case then EVERY castle, keep, inn in the d and d world would be raided on a regular basis simply using charm spells as the people would never remember what happened if they don't have spellcraft "not sure if i met too many fighters with this skill "

Again, charm spells are enemy makers. Any spell that someone has to make a will save on is an enemy maker if the person finds out they were under a spell. If the enemy can figure out that something is out of the ordinary, he's going to suspect some people. He doesnt need to know its magic to know something is wrong. Are all the detectives in your campaign magicians?

Take any other spell, outside of heals and such, they are pretty much bad if the opposite person has to take a save.

Intelligence and other ability checks are usually harder checks to make that skill checks because you only have the ability to work with.

 

[TheEvil]

And it would take at least a little training -- say one rank in an appropriate skill -- to recognize a spell from someone sneezing. So let's make it "Trained Only."

Now, let's think, what should we call that skill?

How about Spellcraft? Yeah, that's the ticket!

What? There's already a skill exactly like that? Oh, well. Let's just use those rules instead of making up our own.

-- Ken Jenks

Ah yes, THIS debate again.
For the record, Spellcraft is for (among other things) IDENTIFYING spells, not recognizing that someone is casting one.
To the example of charming guard, I would expect a guard in the decribed situation to be pretty alarmed if someone started casting a spell in a high security area. Let's be honest, if guards are checking ID for everyone going in, this isn't exactly a bored-main-city-gate-guard situation. Also, for those who think Charm Person is too weak if the guy is ticked off once the duration expires, what exactly do you expect from a 1st level spell? Permanent friendship? Don't forget, a guard who wouldn't let his friends past without going through proper procedures isn't going to let his new 'charm-buddy' through without them either.

 

[kjenks]

For the record, Spellcraft is for (among other things) IDENTIFYING spells, not recognizing that someone is casting one.

Those Spellcraft rules are for figuring out WHICH spell is being cast. That's different from figuring out that SOME spell is being cast.

The Core rules don't require any kind of skill check to recognize that someone is casting a spell. If you see someone speaking out loud, gesturing with one hand and tossing about tiny tarts drawn from a pouch, there's no skill check or Int check required to recognize that he's casting something. It's automatic.

If your DM uses the Complete Adventurer skill modifications, you can use a Sleight of Hand check (trained only) opposed by the witnesses' Spot checks to hide the fact that you're casting a spell. The CA rules don't say anything about the verbal component and Listen, so we just assume that's been abstracted away into the Sleight of Hand/Spot thing.

 

[Shadowdweller]

So, if I can see and hear you cast Charm Person on me, I know you're casting a spell. But it doesn't matter, because you're my friend! But once it's worn off, I remember everything that happened (including you casting a spell, and me suddenly acting strangely.) I probably don't know it's Charm Person, per se. But if I've ever heard of mind-control magic, I'm going to be somewhere between suspicious and furious.

Personally speaking, even if someone just manages to fast-talk me into doing something I wouldn't normally do and didn't want to do I'm going to be somewhere between suspicious and furious.

 

[TheEvil]

Those Spellcraft rules are for figuring out WHICH spell is being cast. That's different from figuring out that SOME spell is being cast.

The Core rules don't require any kind of skill check to recognize that someone is casting a spell. If you see someone speaking out loud, gesturing with one hand and tossing about tiny tarts drawn from a pouch, there's no skill check or Int check required to recognize that he's casting something. It's automatic.

My point exactly.

 

[Tatsukun]

Remember that charm is mind-effecting magic. Perhaps our model should look at other mind effecting things. So, maybe charming is like getting a person drunk. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who have done something odd/strange/wrong because “it seemed like a good idea at the time” when they were drinking.

Now, the next day they probably mostly remember what they did, and maybe know it was bad. If they weren’t drinking, but they were standing in front of a guy in robes wiggling his fingers (or a guy with a lute doing a ‘magical’ jig) they might know what was up.

Again, I think it comes down to that NPC’s experience with magic. If I were a castle captain of the guards, I would make sure all my guards knew what a charm spell looked like while being cast. I’d have a whole week of training about noticing when people are casting spells, and recognizing what happened after the fact. Maybe call it “Special Magical Defense Training”.

That’s my 2 yen

-Tatsu

 

[Sejs]

If I were a castle captain of the guards, I would make sure all my guards knew what a charm spell looked like while being cast. I’d have a whole week of training about noticing when people are casting spells, and recognizing what happened after the fact. Maybe call it “Special Magical Defense Training”.

Heh, if I were that same captain of the guard I think my training would include that if you see someone suspicious staring at you and casting a spell (waving his arms about, mumbling in arcane languages, and making crazy shadow puppets in your general direction) you take that free action to speak and tell your fellow guards "Hey, Spellcaster at 12 o clock." and from there you automatically assume that whatever he's doing is hostile. You or one of your guard buddies takes up position next to the alarm gong and gets ready to bang out the code for Your Position (East Gate, say): Magical Threat if anything even vaguely untoward happens.


Friendly people don't just randomly saunter up to guards on duty and start casting spells without first explaining themselves, and thus it's the safer bet to assume anything magical done toward you out of the blue is bad witha capital B.